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> My preference is the opposite of Bangladesh, something like an orderly New England town full of high-social trust people who raise their kids with sayings lik

> My preference is the opposite of Bangladesh, something like an orderly New England town full of high-social trust people who raise their kids with sayings like "there's no such thing as a free lunch." How do you reconcile your preference for this with the fact that a lot of the other people who express this preference would prefer you hadn't come from Bangladesh to join them? It really seems to me, genuinely, like the rules you advocate for would exclude you if they were applied to you today. You can read elsewhere on my profile the story of my Indian roommate who had very similar views to you, and his illegal deportation. The system is not and has never been "let's see if you're the sort of Indian or Bangladeshi or whatever that we'd like", it's "you're from those backwaters? no thanks." Does it bother you that other people from Bangladesh - or anywhere - who wanted the sort of society you want will likely not be permitted to join it if you build it here? Frankly, my experience with a lot of non-immigrant folks with the views you espouse is that they wouldn't welcome you no matter what views you had.

jacquesm 11mo ago
That's the problem with the views expressed by the GP. It's rights for me but not for thee right up until the moment that the knock on the door comes and then suddenly they're wondering why nobody stands up for them. In general kicking the door shut behind you is bad form but I can understand it, especially if you're financially successful, then you don't want to be associated with all of those really bad and embarrassingly poor people from $COUNTRY that you or your parents emigrated from. But ultimately it is an intellectually dishonest position, those illegal immigrants are no less people for trying to improve their lives and since they are not a drain on the system (healthcare, voting and other rights are closed off to them) their net positive effect is actually a massive economic boost for the country. But that is not something you'll be able to explain to someone who has set their mind on 'illegal immigrants bad'. It is interesting that this is now the 'conservative viewpoint' when actually it is just racism masquerading as enforcement of the law. If and when that difference manifests in the GPs life it will be too late.
- rayiner 11mo ago
  My position is only hypocritical or contradictory under your unstated assumptions about how society works. You believe that cultures are fungible. You think that if you took 10,000 people raised by Dutch mothers and had them build a city, it would turn out the same as if you took 10,000 people raised by Bangladeshi mothers. I reject that premise. I think if you ran that experiment, with all else being equal, the city founded in Dutch culture would be more prosperous, better governed, less corrupt, and more orderly. Since I don't accept your cultural relativism, then there is no contradiction in my view. Quite rationally, I want to live in the city founded on Dutch culture rather than the city founded in Bangladeshi culture. And there is nothing contradictory about moving to a place but opposing mass migration of people behind you that changes the character of the place that you found attractive to begin with. That's the mindset of literally everyone who moves to a quaint little town in the country.
  - ivraatiems 11mo ago
    You're correct that I think you're entirely wrong about how culture works, but that's not what I'm asking you about. My point is that under your rules and worldview, you should not have been allowed to come to the US, because you are from the "bad" culture. Why should an exception have been made for you? Why are you and your family special and different from everyone else in your home culture? Under your own rules, that makes no sense.
  - jacquesm 11mo ago
    > You think that if you took 10,000 people raised by Dutch mothers and had them build a city, it would turn out the same as if you took 10,000 people raised by Bangladeshi mothers. I reject that premise. Are you trying for some kind of world record in strawmen? If so this one should definitely be nominated.
    - rayiner 11mo ago
      You've cut off part of the hypo: "I think if you ran that experiment, with all else being equal, the city founded in Dutch culture would be more prosperous, better governed, less corrupt, and more orderly." So when I say "the same" in the hypo, I mean "substantively the same" modulo superficial differences like food, clothing styles, architecture, etc. Does that clarification fix the hypo for you? If not, what part of the hypo do you think is inapt?
rayiner 11mo ago
What’s there to reconcile? My view of what’s good for America doesn’t need to validate my cultural identity or serve my personal interests. My dad left Bangladesh even though we were rich back home because he didn’t want to raise his kids in the culture. So nobody is hurting my feelings by saying that we should resist importing that culture into the U.S. And to be clear, I don't view myself as an exception! My mom never really assimilated--culturally, she's a Bangladeshi elite--and children mostly receive their culture from their mother.
- ivraatiems 11mo ago
  I ended up replying a little further up in the thread to a related point you made, but to sort of restate: Have you considered that under your own rubric, you're "bad for america" because you're from a "bad" culture? It sounds like by your rules you shouldn't have been allowed to come. You say you don't view yourself as an exception, but clearly you are, so why are you special? If people like you and your dad can come from cultures like the one you left, how is it that culture is stagnant and unchanging as you say?
  - rayiner 11mo ago
    > Have you considered that under your own rubric, you're "bad for america" because you're from a "bad" culture? It sounds like by your rules you shouldn't have been allowed to come. Correct, but so what? I think it's important to be objective and detached. It would be intellectually dishonest of me to color my thinking by trying to come to conclusions that would validate my own presence in the country. > You say you don't view yourself as an exception, but clearly you are, so why are you special? If people like you and your dad can come from cultures like the one you left, how is it that culture is stagnant and unchanging as you say? Societies aren't monoliths. Even Bangladesh has people like my dad, who arrive everywhere early, are horrified by corruption, and love waiting in line. But immigration isn't about individuals, it's about populations in the aggregate. And the evidence shows that populations have identifiable cultural averages that are durable over generations. "Trust, for instance, is one of the more commonly studied attributes: economic cooperation relies upon it, yet it varies substantially from culture to culture. Mr. Jones, an associate professor of economics at George Mason University, notes that, even after four generations in the U.S., immigrants continue to hold attitudes toward trust that are significantly influenced by their home countries. On a host of other matters, such as family, abortion and the role of government, fourth-generation immigrants on average converge only about 60% of the way to the national norm." https://manhattan.institute/article/the-culture-transplant-review-immigrations-legacy https://manhattan.institute/article/the-culture-transplant-r... "Analyses using data from the World Values Survey and the cumulative General Social Surveys indicate that the civic attitudes of contemporary Americans bear a strong resemblance to the civic attitudes of the contemporary citizens of the European nations with whom they share common ancestors." https://cis.org/Richwine/More-Evidence-Cultural-Persistence https://cis.org/Richwine/More-Evidence-Cultural-Persistence

jacquesm 11mo ago

That's the problem with the views expressed by the GP. It's rights for me but not for thee right up until the moment that the knock on the door comes and then suddenly they're wondering why nobody stands up for them. In general kicking the door shut behind you is bad form but I can understand it, especially if you're financially successful, then you don't want to be associated with all of those really bad and embarrassingly poor people from $COUNTRY that you or your parents emigrated from. But ultimately it is an intellectually dishonest position, those illegal immigrants are no less people for trying to improve their lives and since they are not a drain on the system (healthcare, voting and other rights are closed off to them) their net positive effect is actually a massive economic boost for the country. But that is not something you'll be able to explain to someone who has set their mind on 'illegal immigrants bad'. It is interesting that this is now the 'conservative viewpoint' when actually it is just racism masquerading as enforcement of the law. If and when that difference manifests in the GPs life it will be too late.

rayiner 11mo ago
My position is only hypocritical or contradictory under your unstated assumptions about how society works. You believe that cultures are fungible. You think that if you took 10,000 people raised by Dutch mothers and had them build a city, it would turn out the same as if you took 10,000 people raised by Bangladeshi mothers. I reject that premise. I think if you ran that experiment, with all else being equal, the city founded in Dutch culture would be more prosperous, better governed, less corrupt, and more orderly. Since I don't accept your cultural relativism, then there is no contradiction in my view. Quite rationally, I want to live in the city founded on Dutch culture rather than the city founded in Bangladeshi culture. And there is nothing contradictory about moving to a place but opposing mass migration of people behind you that changes the character of the place that you found attractive to begin with. That's the mindset of literally everyone who moves to a quaint little town in the country.
- ivraatiems 11mo ago
  You're correct that I think you're entirely wrong about how culture works, but that's not what I'm asking you about. My point is that under your rules and worldview, you should not have been allowed to come to the US, because you are from the "bad" culture. Why should an exception have been made for you? Why are you and your family special and different from everyone else in your home culture? Under your own rules, that makes no sense.
- jacquesm 11mo ago
  > You think that if you took 10,000 people raised by Dutch mothers and had them build a city, it would turn out the same as if you took 10,000 people raised by Bangladeshi mothers. I reject that premise. Are you trying for some kind of world record in strawmen? If so this one should definitely be nominated.
  - rayiner 11mo ago
    You've cut off part of the hypo: "I think if you ran that experiment, with all else being equal, the city founded in Dutch culture would be more prosperous, better governed, less corrupt, and more orderly." So when I say "the same" in the hypo, I mean "substantively the same" modulo superficial differences like food, clothing styles, architecture, etc. Does that clarification fix the hypo for you? If not, what part of the hypo do you think is inapt?

rayiner 11mo ago

What’s there to reconcile? My view of what’s good for America doesn’t need to validate my cultural identity or serve my personal interests. My dad left Bangladesh even though we were rich back home because he didn’t want to raise his kids in the culture. So nobody is hurting my feelings by saying that we should resist importing that culture into the U.S. And to be clear, I don't view myself as an exception! My mom never really assimilated--culturally, she's a Bangladeshi elite--and children mostly receive their culture from their mother.

ivraatiems 11mo ago
I ended up replying a little further up in the thread to a related point you made, but to sort of restate: Have you considered that under your own rubric, you're "bad for america" because you're from a "bad" culture? It sounds like by your rules you shouldn't have been allowed to come. You say you don't view yourself as an exception, but clearly you are, so why are you special? If people like you and your dad can come from cultures like the one you left, how is it that culture is stagnant and unchanging as you say?
- rayiner 11mo ago
  > Have you considered that under your own rubric, you're "bad for america" because you're from a "bad" culture? It sounds like by your rules you shouldn't have been allowed to come. Correct, but so what? I think it's important to be objective and detached. It would be intellectually dishonest of me to color my thinking by trying to come to conclusions that would validate my own presence in the country. > You say you don't view yourself as an exception, but clearly you are, so why are you special? If people like you and your dad can come from cultures like the one you left, how is it that culture is stagnant and unchanging as you say? Societies aren't monoliths. Even Bangladesh has people like my dad, who arrive everywhere early, are horrified by corruption, and love waiting in line. But immigration isn't about individuals, it's about populations in the aggregate. And the evidence shows that populations have identifiable cultural averages that are durable over generations. "Trust, for instance, is one of the more commonly studied attributes: economic cooperation relies upon it, yet it varies substantially from culture to culture. Mr. Jones, an associate professor of economics at George Mason University, notes that, even after four generations in the U.S., immigrants continue to hold attitudes toward trust that are significantly influenced by their home countries. On a host of other matters, such as family, abortion and the role of government, fourth-generation immigrants on average converge only about 60% of the way to the national norm." https://manhattan.institute/article/the-culture-transplant-review-immigrations-legacy https://manhattan.institute/article/the-culture-transplant-r... "Analyses using data from the World Values Survey and the cumulative General Social Surveys indicate that the civic attitudes of contemporary Americans bear a strong resemblance to the civic attitudes of the contemporary citizens of the European nations with whom they share common ancestors." https://cis.org/Richwine/More-Evidence-Cultural-Persistence https://cis.org/Richwine/More-Evidence-Cultural-Persistence