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Fun fact: a whole bunch of local (as opposed to global: the distinction here is important) Cloudflare-related outages were caused by exactly this thinking: see

Fun fact: a whole bunch of local (as opposed to global: the distinction here is important) Cloudflare-related outages were caused by exactly this thinking: see https://blog.cloudflare.com/going-bgp-zombie-hunting/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/going-bgp-zombie-hunting/ and related HN discussion at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45775051 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45775051 But yeah, if you don't need Cloudflare, like, at all, obviously don't use them. But, who can predict whether they're going to be DDOS-ed in advance? Fact is, most sites are better off with Cloudflare than without. Until something like this happens, of course, but even then the question of annual availability remains. I tried to ask Claude how to solve this conundrum, but it just told me to allow access to some .cloudflare.com site, so, ehhm, not sure...

PunchyHamster 11mo ago
one DDOS won't kill your business, and you can just turn on cloudflare after that happens, if it ever happens.
- codegeek 11mo ago
  But imagine right now vs you only being down. It sucks right now but most customers are aware of why and we can just say "hey its everyone, just not us". If you had a DDOS attack only on you, imagine dealing with customers then. It is a double edged sword.
  - TrickyRick 11mo ago
    Being able to link to a BBC article (Or whatever major news source you prefer) to a customer is the best type of outage. "Look, this is so big it made the news - this isn't our fault"
- DoctorOW 11mo ago
  Honestly I'm sure I'll get some eye rolls here, but that's my compromise. DNS through Cloudflare, orange cloud if and when I need to.
- ZeroConcerns 11mo ago
  Most sustained DDOS attacks will cause your hosting provider to drop you. Sure, you can recover from that in 72 hours or so, but that's not as simple as "turning on Cloudflare" at that point. Seriously: having someone in charge of your first-line traffic that is aware of today's security landscape is worth it. Even if they require an upgrade to the "enterprise plan" before actually helping you out.
- throwaway150 11mo ago
  > one DDOS won't kill your business I see many people saying this but be honest, do you know this for sure or are you just guessing? I've experienced DDoS so I know I'm not just guessing when I say that if your website gets DDoSed your hosting service would just take your website down for good. Then good luck running circles around their support staff to bring your website back up again. Maybe it won't kill your business but it'll surely create a lot of bad PR when your customers find out how you let a simple DDoS attack spiral out of control so bad that your host is refusing to run your website anymore.
  - tcfhgj 11mo ago
    > you let a simple DDoS attack spiral out of control so bad that your host is refusing to run your website anymore. you don't have control about them in the first place
s1mplicissimus 11mo ago
> Fact is, most sites are better off with Cloudflare than without Citation direly needed. In particular I wonder: Who is that total mass of sites where you consider most being better off using cloudflare? I would be curious on what facts you base your assumption. How was the catalog of "all" procured? How are you so confident that "most" of this catalogue are better off using cf? Do you know lots of internals about how strangers (to you) run their sites? If so, mind sharing them?
- ZeroConcerns 11mo ago
  > total mass of sites where you consider most being better off using cloudflare? Most. A lot of simple sites are hosted at providers that will be taken down themselves by run-of-the-mill DDOS attacks. So, what will such providers do when confronted with that scenario? Nuke your simple site (and most likely the associated DNS hosting and email) from orbit. Recovering from that will take several days, if not weeks, if not forever.
  - s1mplicissimus 11mo ago
    I was hoping you could share some of the factual evidence you apparently possess to make such bold claims, alas it seems my hopes will go unfulfilled. Have a good rest of the day!
    - ZeroConcerns 11mo ago
      Hey, s1mplicissimus, hope you are well! Dud(ett)e, it's a message board comment, not a scientific study. But do you really doubt that most ISPs will gladly disable your 1Gb/s home-slash-SMB connection for the rest of the month in face of an incoming 1Tb/s DDOS? Sure, they'll refund your €29,95, but... that's about it, and you should probably be happy they don't disconnect you permanently?
      - s1mplicissimus 11mo ago
        Hi ZeroConcerns, I'm doing fine, thanks, hope you too! There's no but... - just claims you made that I dared to question just for fundamentals, which obviously you want to dodge. I won't go as far as questioning your intellectual honesty here, but I really have a hard time seeing it. So now for reals, good day
udev4096 11mo ago
Stop encouraging centralization and non-private web. Cloudflare's famous mitm also puts everyone's data under their watch. Remember how cloudflare leaked secrets in 2017 on every major search engine?

PunchyHamster 11mo ago

one DDOS won't kill your business, and you can just turn on cloudflare after that happens, if it ever happens.

codegeek 11mo ago
But imagine right now vs you only being down. It sucks right now but most customers are aware of why and we can just say "hey its everyone, just not us". If you had a DDOS attack only on you, imagine dealing with customers then. It is a double edged sword.
- TrickyRick 11mo ago
  Being able to link to a BBC article (Or whatever major news source you prefer) to a customer is the best type of outage. "Look, this is so big it made the news - this isn't our fault"
DoctorOW 11mo ago
Honestly I'm sure I'll get some eye rolls here, but that's my compromise. DNS through Cloudflare, orange cloud if and when I need to.
ZeroConcerns 11mo ago
Most sustained DDOS attacks will cause your hosting provider to drop you. Sure, you can recover from that in 72 hours or so, but that's not as simple as "turning on Cloudflare" at that point. Seriously: having someone in charge of your first-line traffic that is aware of today's security landscape is worth it. Even if they require an upgrade to the "enterprise plan" before actually helping you out.
throwaway150 11mo ago
> one DDOS won't kill your business I see many people saying this but be honest, do you know this for sure or are you just guessing? I've experienced DDoS so I know I'm not just guessing when I say that if your website gets DDoSed your hosting service would just take your website down for good. Then good luck running circles around their support staff to bring your website back up again. Maybe it won't kill your business but it'll surely create a lot of bad PR when your customers find out how you let a simple DDoS attack spiral out of control so bad that your host is refusing to run your website anymore.
- tcfhgj 11mo ago
  > you let a simple DDoS attack spiral out of control so bad that your host is refusing to run your website anymore. you don't have control about them in the first place

s1mplicissimus 11mo ago

> Fact is, most sites are better off with Cloudflare than without Citation direly needed. In particular I wonder: Who is that total mass of sites where you consider most being better off using cloudflare? I would be curious on what facts you base your assumption. How was the catalog of "all" procured? How are you so confident that "most" of this catalogue are better off using cf? Do you know lots of internals about how strangers (to you) run their sites? If so, mind sharing them?

ZeroConcerns 11mo ago
> total mass of sites where you consider most being better off using cloudflare? Most. A lot of simple sites are hosted at providers that will be taken down themselves by run-of-the-mill DDOS attacks. So, what will such providers do when confronted with that scenario? Nuke your simple site (and most likely the associated DNS hosting and email) from orbit. Recovering from that will take several days, if not weeks, if not forever.
- s1mplicissimus 11mo ago
  I was hoping you could share some of the factual evidence you apparently possess to make such bold claims, alas it seems my hopes will go unfulfilled. Have a good rest of the day!
  - ZeroConcerns 11mo ago
    Hey, s1mplicissimus, hope you are well! Dud(ett)e, it's a message board comment, not a scientific study. But do you really doubt that most ISPs will gladly disable your 1Gb/s home-slash-SMB connection for the rest of the month in face of an incoming 1Tb/s DDOS? Sure, they'll refund your €29,95, but... that's about it, and you should probably be happy they don't disconnect you permanently?
    - s1mplicissimus 11mo ago
      Hi ZeroConcerns, I'm doing fine, thanks, hope you too! There's no but... - just claims you made that I dared to question just for fundamentals, which obviously you want to dodge. I won't go as far as questioning your intellectual honesty here, but I really have a hard time seeing it. So now for reals, good day

udev4096 11mo ago

Stop encouraging centralization and non-private web. Cloudflare's famous mitm also puts everyone's data under their watch. Remember how cloudflare leaked secrets in 2017 on every major search engine?