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There is a security question I have been having regarding /e/OS (and I guess Lineage as well). For at least some devices, /e/OS (and again, probably Lineage) us

by palata 1y ago

There is a security question I have been having regarding /e/OS (and I guess Lineage as well). For at least some devices, /e/OS (and again, probably Lineage) use the Google test keys instead of their own signing keys. Doesn't that mean that I could write an app, sign it with those keys (they are public, since they are for testing), and then have it behave like a "system" app on those devices? Isn't that how a system app proves to the system that it is, in fact, a system app? I can understand the "I am not paranoid and I don't really mind about an evil maid attack, so I don't need to relock my bootloader". But isn't it risky to use the Google test keys to sign the whole system? Not trying to criticise Lineage and /e/OS here: I'm hoping that someone knowledgeable about this will be able to help me understand the actual risks.

udev4096 1y ago
e/OS is a joke: https://www.kuketz-blog.de/e-datenschutzfreundlich-bedeutet-nicht-zwangslaeufig-sicher-custom-roms-teil6/ https://www.kuketz-blog.de/e-datenschutzfreundlich-bedeutet-... and https://community.e.foundation/t/service-announcement-26-may/41252/24 https://community.e.foundation/t/service-announcement-26-may... are sufficient to conclude that Lineage is better and Graphene is obviously the gold standard which provides better privacy and security for normal people. The author is wrong in thinking you gotta be some journalist to use it. GrapheneOS is for everyone
- palata 1y ago
  That's not answering my question, though, is it?
- em-bee 1y ago
  i don't see how you can conclude from that article that lineage is better. do you have some reference to that? /e/OS is built on top of lineage. i can't imagine that they would make things worse. grapheneOS only runs on expensive pixel phones. until i can buy a phone that runs grapheneOS for $100 or less, it is not for everyone.
  - _imnothere 1y ago
    It's easy, just by bundling stuff and "luring" users to sync data to their probably-insecure(!) server.
    - em-bee 1y ago
      which bundled stuff would that be? i didn't notice any. i can't speak to their server. i am not using it. i am not even reminded about its existence. i think you are asked once on setup and then never again. hence there is no luring to it either.
      - udev4096 1y ago
        You'll only learn when you get pwned or worse, your phone gets bricked because of incompetent people running e/OS! The fact that you are failing to even acknowledge the proof and refusing to even do a little bit of self-research tells me everything I need to know about e/OS's userbase. Get out of the echo chamber of using privacy theatric and insecure mobile OS
        em-bee 1y ago
        i don't know how you get to that conclusion. you are the one making claims, so you need to bring the evidence. what apps are on /e/OS that would allow me to get owned? but the key point is: no matter what you think about me: you think i'd do better with lineageOS? i'd be using all the same apps there. so i really can't see how that would be any safer.
  - netdevphoenix 1y ago
    > grapheneOS only runs on expensive pixel phone You are right. The user saying that "GrapheneOs is for everyone" is just classic HN bubble syndrome speaking from a position of privilege so great it blinds their worldview. GrapheneOS is obviously not for everyone because it relies on the user having a certain income relative to their local cost of living. While Lineage is leaning more towards extending the usable lives of smartphones officially unsupported, Graphene leans towards security, especifically features that are only present on a few high-end devices. This is why it is not hard to see why Lineage is the better option for most people while Graphene is the option for those wealthy enough. Just like celebrities find hard to relate to non-celebs, many users here find hard to relate to those who are not wealthy. This to me sounds like if a celeb said that "space travel is for everyone".
faust201 1y ago
> Isn't that how a system app proves to the system that it is, in fact, a system app? No. In a way it does not matter if the app is system or not. Even user apps (signed with some other key) can be powerful to do damage. System partitions cannot be edited due to SELinux and also thesedays the partition ext4 is created with certain blocks - cant be changed. Yes one can use magisk to do some gimmick - but that is kinda telling OS - Allow me to do anything. The notion of locked bootloader as a holy grail against anything is stupidity. Apps inherently have too much power - assuming user somehow granted permissions. (or you are from a 3-letter organisation - incl. NSO)
- palata 1y ago
  This does not sound very informed, to be honest. I can also throw random words like SELinux and NSO, but that's not bringing anything to the discussion.
  - faust201 1y ago
    Your top question is like... I have no idea what is security. What is good? Such questions cannot be answered easily. Read https://ssd.eff.org/module/your-security-plan https://ssd.eff.org/module/your-security-plan - Trying to protect all your data from everything all the time is impractical and exhausting. - There is no perfect option for security. Not everyone has the same priorities, concerns, or access to resources. Your risk assessment will allow you to plan the right strategy for you, balancing convenience, cost, and privacy. - Some install custom ROM because they don't install 3rd party apps like WhatsApp etc but want to use only OpenSource Email - Some may say - using original factory ROM is bad for privacy as Google snoops a lot but they have some assurance that some random script kiddie cannot take over - Some want security but not privacy (i.e) get a ChromeOS - yes everything is given to Google but Google has one of the best security team in the world.
    - palata 1y ago
      My question is: > Doesn't that mean that I could write an app, sign it with those keys (they are public, since they are for testing), and then have it behave like a "system" app on those devices?

by palata 1y ago

udev4096 1y ago

e/OS is a joke: https://www.kuketz-blog.de/e-datenschutzfreundlich-bedeutet-nicht-zwangslaeufig-sicher-custom-roms-teil6/ https://www.kuketz-blog.de/e-datenschutzfreundlich-bedeutet-... and https://community.e.foundation/t/service-announcement-26-may/41252/24 https://community.e.foundation/t/service-announcement-26-may... are sufficient to conclude that Lineage is better and Graphene is obviously the gold standard which provides better privacy and security for normal people. The author is wrong in thinking you gotta be some journalist to use it. GrapheneOS is for everyone

palata 1y ago
That's not answering my question, though, is it?
em-bee 1y ago
i don't see how you can conclude from that article that lineage is better. do you have some reference to that? /e/OS is built on top of lineage. i can't imagine that they would make things worse. grapheneOS only runs on expensive pixel phones. until i can buy a phone that runs grapheneOS for $100 or less, it is not for everyone.
- _imnothere 1y ago
  It's easy, just by bundling stuff and "luring" users to sync data to their probably-insecure(!) server.
  - em-bee 1y ago
    which bundled stuff would that be? i didn't notice any. i can't speak to their server. i am not using it. i am not even reminded about its existence. i think you are asked once on setup and then never again. hence there is no luring to it either.
    - udev4096 1y ago
      You'll only learn when you get pwned or worse, your phone gets bricked because of incompetent people running e/OS! The fact that you are failing to even acknowledge the proof and refusing to even do a little bit of self-research tells me everything I need to know about e/OS's userbase. Get out of the echo chamber of using privacy theatric and insecure mobile OS
      - em-bee 1y ago
        i don't know how you get to that conclusion. you are the one making claims, so you need to bring the evidence. what apps are on /e/OS that would allow me to get owned? but the key point is: no matter what you think about me: you think i'd do better with lineageOS? i'd be using all the same apps there. so i really can't see how that would be any safer.
- netdevphoenix 1y ago
  > grapheneOS only runs on expensive pixel phone You are right. The user saying that "GrapheneOs is for everyone" is just classic HN bubble syndrome speaking from a position of privilege so great it blinds their worldview. GrapheneOS is obviously not for everyone because it relies on the user having a certain income relative to their local cost of living. While Lineage is leaning more towards extending the usable lives of smartphones officially unsupported, Graphene leans towards security, especifically features that are only present on a few high-end devices. This is why it is not hard to see why Lineage is the better option for most people while Graphene is the option for those wealthy enough. Just like celebrities find hard to relate to non-celebs, many users here find hard to relate to those who are not wealthy. This to me sounds like if a celeb said that "space travel is for everyone".

faust201 1y ago

> Isn't that how a system app proves to the system that it is, in fact, a system app? No. In a way it does not matter if the app is system or not. Even user apps (signed with some other key) can be powerful to do damage. System partitions cannot be edited due to SELinux and also thesedays the partition ext4 is created with certain blocks - cant be changed. Yes one can use magisk to do some gimmick - but that is kinda telling OS - Allow me to do anything. The notion of locked bootloader as a holy grail against anything is stupidity. Apps inherently have too much power - assuming user somehow granted permissions. (or you are from a 3-letter organisation - incl. NSO)

palata 1y ago
This does not sound very informed, to be honest. I can also throw random words like SELinux and NSO, but that's not bringing anything to the discussion.
- faust201 1y ago
  Your top question is like... I have no idea what is security. What is good? Such questions cannot be answered easily. Read https://ssd.eff.org/module/your-security-plan https://ssd.eff.org/module/your-security-plan - Trying to protect all your data from everything all the time is impractical and exhausting. - There is no perfect option for security. Not everyone has the same priorities, concerns, or access to resources. Your risk assessment will allow you to plan the right strategy for you, balancing convenience, cost, and privacy. - Some install custom ROM because they don't install 3rd party apps like WhatsApp etc but want to use only OpenSource Email - Some may say - using original factory ROM is bad for privacy as Google snoops a lot but they have some assurance that some random script kiddie cannot take over - Some want security but not privacy (i.e) get a ChromeOS - yes everything is given to Google but Google has one of the best security team in the world.
  - palata 1y ago
    My question is: > Doesn't that mean that I could write an app, sign it with those keys (they are public, since they are for testing), and then have it behave like a "system" app on those devices?