4 ms·

Comparing Android Alternatives: Lineage OS, ∕E∕OS, and Graphene OS

65 points by ingve 11mo ago

palata 11mo ago
There is a security question I have been having regarding /e/OS (and I guess Lineage as well). For at least some devices, /e/OS (and again, probably Lineage) use the Google test keys instead of their own signing keys. Doesn't that mean that I could write an app, sign it with those keys (they are public, since they are for testing), and then have it behave like a "system" app on those devices? Isn't that how a system app proves to the system that it is, in fact, a system app? I can understand the "I am not paranoid and I don't really mind about an evil maid attack, so I don't need to relock my bootloader". But isn't it risky to use the Google test keys to sign the whole system? Not trying to criticise Lineage and /e/OS here: I'm hoping that someone knowledgeable about this will be able to help me understand the actual risks.
- udev4096 11mo ago
  e/OS is a joke: https://www.kuketz-blog.de/e-datenschutzfreundlich-bedeutet-nicht-zwangslaeufig-sicher-custom-roms-teil6/ https://www.kuketz-blog.de/e-datenschutzfreundlich-bedeutet-... and https://community.e.foundation/t/service-announcement-26-may/41252/24 https://community.e.foundation/t/service-announcement-26-may... are sufficient to conclude that Lineage is better and Graphene is obviously the gold standard which provides better privacy and security for normal people. The author is wrong in thinking you gotta be some journalist to use it. GrapheneOS is for everyone
  - palata 11mo ago
    That's not answering my question, though, is it?
  - em-bee 11mo ago
    i don't see how you can conclude from that article that lineage is better. do you have some reference to that? /e/OS is built on top of lineage. i can't imagine that they would make things worse. grapheneOS only runs on expensive pixel phones. until i can buy a phone that runs grapheneOS for $100 or less, it is not for everyone.
    - _imnothere 11mo ago
      It's easy, just by bundling stuff and "luring" users to sync data to their probably-insecure(!) server.
      - em-bee 11mo ago
        which bundled stuff would that be? i didn't notice any. i can't speak to their server. i am not using it. i am not even reminded about its existence. i think you are asked once on setup and then never again. hence there is no luring to it either.
        udev4096 11mo ago
        You'll only learn when you get pwned or worse, your phone gets bricked because of incompetent people running e/OS! The fact that you are failing to even acknowledge the proof and refusing to even do a little bit of self-research tells me everything I need to know about e/OS's userbase. Get out of the echo chamber of using privacy theatric and insecure mobile OS
        em-bee 11mo ago
        i don't know how you get to that conclusion. you are the one making claims, so you need to bring the evidence. what apps are on /e/OS that would allow me to get owned? but the key point is: no matter what you think about me: you think i'd do better with lineageOS? i'd be using all the same apps there. so i really can't see how that would be any safer.
    - netdevphoenix 11mo ago
      > grapheneOS only runs on expensive pixel phone You are right. The user saying that "GrapheneOs is for everyone" is just classic HN bubble syndrome speaking from a position of privilege so great it blinds their worldview. GrapheneOS is obviously not for everyone because it relies on the user having a certain income relative to their local cost of living. While Lineage is leaning more towards extending the usable lives of smartphones officially unsupported, Graphene leans towards security, especifically features that are only present on a few high-end devices. This is why it is not hard to see why Lineage is the better option for most people while Graphene is the option for those wealthy enough. Just like celebrities find hard to relate to non-celebs, many users here find hard to relate to those who are not wealthy. This to me sounds like if a celeb said that "space travel is for everyone".
- faust201 11mo ago
  > Isn't that how a system app proves to the system that it is, in fact, a system app? No. In a way it does not matter if the app is system or not. Even user apps (signed with some other key) can be powerful to do damage. System partitions cannot be edited due to SELinux and also thesedays the partition ext4 is created with certain blocks - cant be changed. Yes one can use magisk to do some gimmick - but that is kinda telling OS - Allow me to do anything. The notion of locked bootloader as a holy grail against anything is stupidity. Apps inherently have too much power - assuming user somehow granted permissions. (or you are from a 3-letter organisation - incl. NSO)
  - palata 11mo ago
    This does not sound very informed, to be honest. I can also throw random words like SELinux and NSO, but that's not bringing anything to the discussion.
    - faust201 11mo ago
      Your top question is like... I have no idea what is security. What is good? Such questions cannot be answered easily. Read https://ssd.eff.org/module/your-security-plan https://ssd.eff.org/module/your-security-plan - Trying to protect all your data from everything all the time is impractical and exhausting. - There is no perfect option for security. Not everyone has the same priorities, concerns, or access to resources. Your risk assessment will allow you to plan the right strategy for you, balancing convenience, cost, and privacy. - Some install custom ROM because they don't install 3rd party apps like WhatsApp etc but want to use only OpenSource Email - Some may say - using original factory ROM is bad for privacy as Google snoops a lot but they have some assurance that some random script kiddie cannot take over - Some want security but not privacy (i.e) get a ChromeOS - yes everything is given to Google but Google has one of the best security team in the world.
      - palata 11mo ago
        My question is: > Doesn't that mean that I could write an app, sign it with those keys (they are public, since they are for testing), and then have it behave like a "system" app on those devices?
preisschild 11mo ago
There is also this site i found useful: https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm
hexbin010 11mo ago
A rather uninteresting and shallow comparison, for this audience.
- selfhoster11 11mo ago
  It's still a good primer for those of us that haven't been keeping up with de-Googled Android for a while.
udev4096 11mo ago
I would never recommend this article for anyone looking for comparison. It's wrong in so many ways. Your opinions are highly biased and it's an extremely poor attempt to make GrapheneOS look bad. For a factual and technical comparison, I would suggest this blog post series: https://www.kuketz-blog.de/android-grapheneos-calyxos-und-co-unter-der-lupe-custom-roms-teil1/ https://www.kuketz-blog.de/android-grapheneos-calyxos-und-co... It's well written and focuses on facts rather than poorly made assumptions
- yjftsjthsd-h 11mo ago
  > It's wrong in so many ways. Your opinions are highly biased and it's an extremely poor attempt to make GrapheneOS look bad. The article describes downsides to all 3 options, and everything they say about GOS seems reasonable to me; what exactly do you find objectionable?
  - strcat 11mo ago
    The article misses the substantial privacy improvements made by GrapheneOS and heavily downplays the importance of security. There are widespread use of exploits, not only in targeted attacks. It also omits the fact that the other operating systems which are brought up have years of delays for important privacy and security patches while not providing all the standard Android Open Source Project privacy and security protections. Not having kernel and browser updates for months, not shipping current driver and firmware updates and not keeping up with the bare minimum partial backports of AOSP patches to older releases is quite problematic. Beyond that, providing full Android privacy and security patches requires being on the latest releases. It's also strange to talk about the hardware requirements listed at https://grapheneos.org/faq#future-devices https://grapheneos.org/faq#future-devices as if those are unknown and not well documented. A device not receiving privacy/security patches for drivers and firmware is major a problem regardless of the OS choice. Not having secure disk encryption for the majority of users not setting a strong passphrase due to lack of a good secure element is another major issue. These requirements don't exist for no reason and GrapheneOS is working with a major OEM on making a device that's at least a sidegrade from a Pixel and then later a security upgrade over it. No devices other than Pixels are providing a reasonable level of security combined with allowing another OS. Lagging very far behind on patches and lacking working disk encryption for most users isn't doing the bare minimum. GrapheneOS doesn't do anything which reduces USB-C functionality beyond having a setting which blocks new USB-C connections and then disables USB-C when locked by default which can be turned off.
edwcross 11mo ago
The article does not mention much about firmware. The main reason I stopped using Lineage is because I got a Pixel and wanted to keep maximum picture quality with it. Open-source photo applications, from what I understood, cannot access all of the hardware features to get photos as good as Google's app. Is it enough to get the Google Camera APK somewhere else and use it? Or do I really need to keep the OS as Google intended, in order to get best picture quality? I don't have the time lately to do much tinkering and compare it by myself.
- palata 11mo ago
  > The main reason I stopped using Lineage is because I got a Pixel and wanted to keep maximum picture quality with it. I think if you get a Pixel, then you should use either Stock Android or GrapheneOS. I don't see the point in using something else. > Is it enough to get the Google Camera APK somewhere else and use it? With GrapheneOS, you can install the Play Services, the Play Store and then the Google Camera. I would be surprised if that wasn't enough. In fact I would be surprised if you needed more than the Camera APK. But like you, I haven't made the comparison. Would be interesting!
  - netdevphoenix 11mo ago
    >With GrapheneOS, you can install the Play Services, the Play Store Why use GrapheneOS if you are going to install Google Services anyway? The whole point of Graphene is to have a fully locked down OS that still works as it should. A mobile fortress basically. Installing Google Services defeats the point imo as it opens multiple security holes in the fortress. May as well just install the stock os. At the end of the day, once Google stops shipping sec updates for your phone, firmware updates stop so that's it really. Graphene cannot give you the firmware updates anyway. And at that point, you have a vulnerable phone. I think graphene os makes more sense if you go all in. Otherwise there is no much point really.
    - hofrogs 11mo ago
      It doesn't open up any holes since google play services are not allowed any special access on grapheneOS and run as a regular sandboxed app. You can make a separate user profile just for google apps.
netdevphoenix 11mo ago
Surprised that Sailfish OS is not there. I assume the only reason it says "Android-based" is to run Android apps. Sailfish is not android based but it can android apps. Seems like the perfect balance, live on a parallel reality and just dip into Androidland when you need it to. Only con is that like Graphene, it only works on specific devices. It's not free though but it is an alternative worth considering.
- palata 11mo ago
  I guess the author just hasn't ever tried it. I keep hearing this name, "Sailfish OS", but I just don't know what it is. I probably should have a look one of these days :-).
- SahAssar 11mo ago
  It's not open source (or even trying to be), right? That'd be a requirement for me at least.
mid-kid 11mo ago
I'm not sure why the author counts microG as "appeasing google". microG is a full, open source reimplementation and won't send any data to google (or anyone else) unless you specifically enable the parts of the API that do that (notably, push notifications) - and even then, the amount is reduced. Furthermore, microG can be installed on LineageOS, as can the official play services. Either of these choices gives you compatibility with anything that doesn't require play integrity - just like with GrapheneOS.
tetris11 11mo ago
I just want a system where I can run banking apps. Lineage + Magisk does not do that for me. I've tried the modules, zygisk/lsposed, deny lists, all that jazz - the app still says no.

65 points by ingve 11mo ago

palata 11mo ago

There is a security question I have been having regarding /e/OS (and I guess Lineage as well). For at least some devices, /e/OS (and again, probably Lineage) use the Google test keys instead of their own signing keys. Doesn't that mean that I could write an app, sign it with those keys (they are public, since they are for testing), and then have it behave like a "system" app on those devices? Isn't that how a system app proves to the system that it is, in fact, a system app? I can understand the "I am not paranoid and I don't really mind about an evil maid attack, so I don't need to relock my bootloader". But isn't it risky to use the Google test keys to sign the whole system? Not trying to criticise Lineage and /e/OS here: I'm hoping that someone knowledgeable about this will be able to help me understand the actual risks.

udev4096 11mo ago
e/OS is a joke: https://www.kuketz-blog.de/e-datenschutzfreundlich-bedeutet-nicht-zwangslaeufig-sicher-custom-roms-teil6/ https://www.kuketz-blog.de/e-datenschutzfreundlich-bedeutet-... and https://community.e.foundation/t/service-announcement-26-may/41252/24 https://community.e.foundation/t/service-announcement-26-may... are sufficient to conclude that Lineage is better and Graphene is obviously the gold standard which provides better privacy and security for normal people. The author is wrong in thinking you gotta be some journalist to use it. GrapheneOS is for everyone
- palata 11mo ago
  That's not answering my question, though, is it?
- em-bee 11mo ago
  i don't see how you can conclude from that article that lineage is better. do you have some reference to that? /e/OS is built on top of lineage. i can't imagine that they would make things worse. grapheneOS only runs on expensive pixel phones. until i can buy a phone that runs grapheneOS for $100 or less, it is not for everyone.
  - _imnothere 11mo ago
    It's easy, just by bundling stuff and "luring" users to sync data to their probably-insecure(!) server.
    - em-bee 11mo ago
      which bundled stuff would that be? i didn't notice any. i can't speak to their server. i am not using it. i am not even reminded about its existence. i think you are asked once on setup and then never again. hence there is no luring to it either.
      - udev4096 11mo ago
        You'll only learn when you get pwned or worse, your phone gets bricked because of incompetent people running e/OS! The fact that you are failing to even acknowledge the proof and refusing to even do a little bit of self-research tells me everything I need to know about e/OS's userbase. Get out of the echo chamber of using privacy theatric and insecure mobile OS
        em-bee 11mo ago
        i don't know how you get to that conclusion. you are the one making claims, so you need to bring the evidence. what apps are on /e/OS that would allow me to get owned? but the key point is: no matter what you think about me: you think i'd do better with lineageOS? i'd be using all the same apps there. so i really can't see how that would be any safer.
  - netdevphoenix 11mo ago
    > grapheneOS only runs on expensive pixel phone You are right. The user saying that "GrapheneOs is for everyone" is just classic HN bubble syndrome speaking from a position of privilege so great it blinds their worldview. GrapheneOS is obviously not for everyone because it relies on the user having a certain income relative to their local cost of living. While Lineage is leaning more towards extending the usable lives of smartphones officially unsupported, Graphene leans towards security, especifically features that are only present on a few high-end devices. This is why it is not hard to see why Lineage is the better option for most people while Graphene is the option for those wealthy enough. Just like celebrities find hard to relate to non-celebs, many users here find hard to relate to those who are not wealthy. This to me sounds like if a celeb said that "space travel is for everyone".
faust201 11mo ago
> Isn't that how a system app proves to the system that it is, in fact, a system app? No. In a way it does not matter if the app is system or not. Even user apps (signed with some other key) can be powerful to do damage. System partitions cannot be edited due to SELinux and also thesedays the partition ext4 is created with certain blocks - cant be changed. Yes one can use magisk to do some gimmick - but that is kinda telling OS - Allow me to do anything. The notion of locked bootloader as a holy grail against anything is stupidity. Apps inherently have too much power - assuming user somehow granted permissions. (or you are from a 3-letter organisation - incl. NSO)
- palata 11mo ago
  This does not sound very informed, to be honest. I can also throw random words like SELinux and NSO, but that's not bringing anything to the discussion.
  - faust201 11mo ago
    Your top question is like... I have no idea what is security. What is good? Such questions cannot be answered easily. Read https://ssd.eff.org/module/your-security-plan https://ssd.eff.org/module/your-security-plan - Trying to protect all your data from everything all the time is impractical and exhausting. - There is no perfect option for security. Not everyone has the same priorities, concerns, or access to resources. Your risk assessment will allow you to plan the right strategy for you, balancing convenience, cost, and privacy. - Some install custom ROM because they don't install 3rd party apps like WhatsApp etc but want to use only OpenSource Email - Some may say - using original factory ROM is bad for privacy as Google snoops a lot but they have some assurance that some random script kiddie cannot take over - Some want security but not privacy (i.e) get a ChromeOS - yes everything is given to Google but Google has one of the best security team in the world.
    - palata 11mo ago
      My question is: > Doesn't that mean that I could write an app, sign it with those keys (they are public, since they are for testing), and then have it behave like a "system" app on those devices?

preisschild 11mo ago

There is also this site i found useful: https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm

hexbin010 11mo ago

A rather uninteresting and shallow comparison, for this audience.

selfhoster11 11mo ago
It's still a good primer for those of us that haven't been keeping up with de-Googled Android for a while.

udev4096 11mo ago

I would never recommend this article for anyone looking for comparison. It's wrong in so many ways. Your opinions are highly biased and it's an extremely poor attempt to make GrapheneOS look bad. For a factual and technical comparison, I would suggest this blog post series: https://www.kuketz-blog.de/android-grapheneos-calyxos-und-co-unter-der-lupe-custom-roms-teil1/ https://www.kuketz-blog.de/android-grapheneos-calyxos-und-co... It's well written and focuses on facts rather than poorly made assumptions

yjftsjthsd-h 11mo ago
> It's wrong in so many ways. Your opinions are highly biased and it's an extremely poor attempt to make GrapheneOS look bad. The article describes downsides to all 3 options, and everything they say about GOS seems reasonable to me; what exactly do you find objectionable?
- strcat 11mo ago
  The article misses the substantial privacy improvements made by GrapheneOS and heavily downplays the importance of security. There are widespread use of exploits, not only in targeted attacks. It also omits the fact that the other operating systems which are brought up have years of delays for important privacy and security patches while not providing all the standard Android Open Source Project privacy and security protections. Not having kernel and browser updates for months, not shipping current driver and firmware updates and not keeping up with the bare minimum partial backports of AOSP patches to older releases is quite problematic. Beyond that, providing full Android privacy and security patches requires being on the latest releases. It's also strange to talk about the hardware requirements listed at https://grapheneos.org/faq#future-devices https://grapheneos.org/faq#future-devices as if those are unknown and not well documented. A device not receiving privacy/security patches for drivers and firmware is major a problem regardless of the OS choice. Not having secure disk encryption for the majority of users not setting a strong passphrase due to lack of a good secure element is another major issue. These requirements don't exist for no reason and GrapheneOS is working with a major OEM on making a device that's at least a sidegrade from a Pixel and then later a security upgrade over it. No devices other than Pixels are providing a reasonable level of security combined with allowing another OS. Lagging very far behind on patches and lacking working disk encryption for most users isn't doing the bare minimum. GrapheneOS doesn't do anything which reduces USB-C functionality beyond having a setting which blocks new USB-C connections and then disables USB-C when locked by default which can be turned off.

edwcross 11mo ago

The article does not mention much about firmware. The main reason I stopped using Lineage is because I got a Pixel and wanted to keep maximum picture quality with it. Open-source photo applications, from what I understood, cannot access all of the hardware features to get photos as good as Google's app. Is it enough to get the Google Camera APK somewhere else and use it? Or do I really need to keep the OS as Google intended, in order to get best picture quality? I don't have the time lately to do much tinkering and compare it by myself.

palata 11mo ago
> The main reason I stopped using Lineage is because I got a Pixel and wanted to keep maximum picture quality with it. I think if you get a Pixel, then you should use either Stock Android or GrapheneOS. I don't see the point in using something else. > Is it enough to get the Google Camera APK somewhere else and use it? With GrapheneOS, you can install the Play Services, the Play Store and then the Google Camera. I would be surprised if that wasn't enough. In fact I would be surprised if you needed more than the Camera APK. But like you, I haven't made the comparison. Would be interesting!
- netdevphoenix 11mo ago
  >With GrapheneOS, you can install the Play Services, the Play Store Why use GrapheneOS if you are going to install Google Services anyway? The whole point of Graphene is to have a fully locked down OS that still works as it should. A mobile fortress basically. Installing Google Services defeats the point imo as it opens multiple security holes in the fortress. May as well just install the stock os. At the end of the day, once Google stops shipping sec updates for your phone, firmware updates stop so that's it really. Graphene cannot give you the firmware updates anyway. And at that point, you have a vulnerable phone. I think graphene os makes more sense if you go all in. Otherwise there is no much point really.
  - hofrogs 11mo ago
    It doesn't open up any holes since google play services are not allowed any special access on grapheneOS and run as a regular sandboxed app. You can make a separate user profile just for google apps.

netdevphoenix 11mo ago

Surprised that Sailfish OS is not there. I assume the only reason it says "Android-based" is to run Android apps. Sailfish is not android based but it can android apps. Seems like the perfect balance, live on a parallel reality and just dip into Androidland when you need it to. Only con is that like Graphene, it only works on specific devices. It's not free though but it is an alternative worth considering.

palata 11mo ago
I guess the author just hasn't ever tried it. I keep hearing this name, "Sailfish OS", but I just don't know what it is. I probably should have a look one of these days :-).
SahAssar 11mo ago
It's not open source (or even trying to be), right? That'd be a requirement for me at least.

mid-kid 11mo ago

I'm not sure why the author counts microG as "appeasing google". microG is a full, open source reimplementation and won't send any data to google (or anyone else) unless you specifically enable the parts of the API that do that (notably, push notifications) - and even then, the amount is reduced. Furthermore, microG can be installed on LineageOS, as can the official play services. Either of these choices gives you compatibility with anything that doesn't require play integrity - just like with GrapheneOS.

tetris11 11mo ago

I just want a system where I can run banking apps. Lineage + Magisk does not do that for me. I've tried the modules, zygisk/lsposed, deny lists, all that jazz - the app still says no.