7 ms·

On the other hand, who paid for the education of your employees ? Who pays when they go to a hospital ? Who built the roads they use to get to work ? Who is goi

On the other hand, who paid for the education of your employees ? Who pays when they go to a hospital ? Who built the roads they use to get to work ? Who is going to give them money when they get old ? Who pays the policemen who protect your office from robberies...

digitalengineer 14y ago
I see you. You think government paid for all those things. Let me correct your view: You and I pay for all those things (through government which takes it's own cut out of everything).
- rguillebert 14y ago
  yes, and if you pay less taxes, then it won't be able to pay for it, and if a government can't pay education, then there's less employees competent enough for your start-up. Same goes for a lot of thing the government pays. And government is the only one who is (realistically) able to pay for it.
  - digitalengineer 14y ago
    We're not talking about paying less taxes. We're talking about the more and more taxes to pay for a government that is -in essence- broke. Hollande basically promised everybody everything and is now facing reality. Like they say: "You can deny reality, but you can not deny the consequences of denying reality".
    - rguillebert 14y ago
      Let's face it, there's not an infinite number of unnecessary spending, at some point you have to be close to a balanced budget and even though I think taxing entrepreneurs too much is a bad idea, they aren't starving and I think asking for a little solidarity isn't too much to ask. You probably don't want to pay for "those lazy public sector employees" (and if you do, forget this sentence) but it's just a front for selfishness.
      - digitalengineer 14y ago
        "Asking for a little solidarity" is in my opinion not the point. You know, entrepreneurs are a resourceful bunch. Every society needs people that are willing to take risks. Hollande is acting like he's on an island. I can tell you right now his actions are causing reactions. Startups that won't happen in France/ Paris but in Berlin, Brussels, Amsterdam, London... All are just a few hours away. By the way, you make it sound as if being selfish is a bad thing ;-)
        rguillebert 14y ago
        Then what are they complaining about ? If you don't care about France, just leave
        digitalengineer 14y ago
        They are it's not something to rejoice about... "“Seen from abroad, France is the last country where an entrepreneur wants to go,” Marc Simoncini, the founder of French dating site Meetic. com, said in an interview on BFM TV last week. “I don’t know of any British person who’s come to set up a business in France. But I know plenty of young French people who’ve gone to London to do that.”" http://business.financialpost.com/2012/05/14/french-entrepreneurs-take-flight/ http://business.financialpost.com/2012/05/14/french-entrepre...
        rguillebert 14y ago
        We can all agree that France isn't entrepreneur friendly but it's easy to say "don't tax us" and it's a lot harder to find places where money can be saved. Right now if you want to tax the high middle class and higher (that includes entrepreneurs who can leave France), they threaten to leave, I don't see how starting negotiations by making threats is a good thing.
        digitalengineer 14y ago
        I would suggest not looking at the people and raise their taxes, but instead look at government itself and see how they can spend less. (Not talking about cutting benefits but the size of government itself and everything regarding it's operations).
  - raverbashing 14y ago
    Funny, the US should be the worse place for startups then since the government doesn't pay for people to go to universities there.
    - rguillebert 14y ago
      They still pay until high school.
    - mempko 14y ago
      Notice many people working at tech startup in silicon valley are either A) Rich already and went to Ivy League or could afford a good university education, or 2) Foreigners who got their education elsewhere.
      - raverbashing 14y ago
        Well, before the student loan craze it was not difficult to find an affordable university in the US. Certainly not Ivy League, but not bad. E.g.: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/education/2004-09-08-tuition-table.htm http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/education/2004-09-08-tui... Today an Ivy League tuition year will set you back around 40k (possibly more) http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/...
mseebach 14y ago
When you get a chance, go find a copy of your national budget and find out how much of it goes towards education, health and infrastructure. Then stop using that argument.
- rguillebert 14y ago
  http://voila-le-travail.data-projet.com/budget2012 http://voila-le-travail.data-projet.com/budget2012 in proportion, I think the budget is fine, more than 1/4th goes to education (if you include universities)
  - mseebach 14y ago
    Wow, that's a great visualisation! Total: 676,625 millions (hover on the top bar, I can tell what the 366 bln in the headline refers to?). Schools: 62,330 mln = 9.21% Higher ed+research: 25,439 mln = 3.76% Transport: 4,307 mln = 0.64% Health: 1,379 mln = 0.2% For a grand total of 13.81%. I'm not sure how you get to 1/4 going to education?
    - rguillebert 14y ago
      There's an error with the 676,625 millions I think, the correct total is 366,000 millions If you look at this one from 2011 : http://www.performance-publique.budget.gouv.fr/fileadmin/medias/images/budget/essentiel/depenses_missions_2011_01.jpg http://www.performance-publique.budget.gouv.fr/fileadmin/med... you can see that 23.6% went to education in 2011
      - mseebach 14y ago
        OK. Not being fluent in French, and not knowing the vocabulary used in France, I can't evaluate these and find other sources. But, for one thing, however, the pie chart doesn't seem to include debt payments. Also, a proper comparison would include the regions.
        rguillebert 14y ago

digitalengineer 14y ago

I see you. You think government paid for all those things. Let me correct your view: You and I pay for all those things (through government which takes it's own cut out of everything).

rguillebert 14y ago
yes, and if you pay less taxes, then it won't be able to pay for it, and if a government can't pay education, then there's less employees competent enough for your start-up. Same goes for a lot of thing the government pays. And government is the only one who is (realistically) able to pay for it.
- digitalengineer 14y ago
  We're not talking about paying less taxes. We're talking about the more and more taxes to pay for a government that is -in essence- broke. Hollande basically promised everybody everything and is now facing reality. Like they say: "You can deny reality, but you can not deny the consequences of denying reality".
  - rguillebert 14y ago
    Let's face it, there's not an infinite number of unnecessary spending, at some point you have to be close to a balanced budget and even though I think taxing entrepreneurs too much is a bad idea, they aren't starving and I think asking for a little solidarity isn't too much to ask. You probably don't want to pay for "those lazy public sector employees" (and if you do, forget this sentence) but it's just a front for selfishness.
    - digitalengineer 14y ago
      "Asking for a little solidarity" is in my opinion not the point. You know, entrepreneurs are a resourceful bunch. Every society needs people that are willing to take risks. Hollande is acting like he's on an island. I can tell you right now his actions are causing reactions. Startups that won't happen in France/ Paris but in Berlin, Brussels, Amsterdam, London... All are just a few hours away. By the way, you make it sound as if being selfish is a bad thing ;-)
      - rguillebert 14y ago
        Then what are they complaining about ? If you don't care about France, just leave
        digitalengineer 14y ago
        They are it's not something to rejoice about... "“Seen from abroad, France is the last country where an entrepreneur wants to go,” Marc Simoncini, the founder of French dating site Meetic. com, said in an interview on BFM TV last week. “I don’t know of any British person who’s come to set up a business in France. But I know plenty of young French people who’ve gone to London to do that.”" http://business.financialpost.com/2012/05/14/french-entrepreneurs-take-flight/ http://business.financialpost.com/2012/05/14/french-entrepre...
        rguillebert 14y ago
        We can all agree that France isn't entrepreneur friendly but it's easy to say "don't tax us" and it's a lot harder to find places where money can be saved. Right now if you want to tax the high middle class and higher (that includes entrepreneurs who can leave France), they threaten to leave, I don't see how starting negotiations by making threats is a good thing.
        digitalengineer 14y ago
        I would suggest not looking at the people and raise their taxes, but instead look at government itself and see how they can spend less. (Not talking about cutting benefits but the size of government itself and everything regarding it's operations).
- raverbashing 14y ago
  Funny, the US should be the worse place for startups then since the government doesn't pay for people to go to universities there.
  - rguillebert 14y ago
    They still pay until high school.
  - mempko 14y ago
    Notice many people working at tech startup in silicon valley are either A) Rich already and went to Ivy League or could afford a good university education, or 2) Foreigners who got their education elsewhere.
    - raverbashing 14y ago
      Well, before the student loan craze it was not difficult to find an affordable university in the US. Certainly not Ivy League, but not bad. E.g.: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/education/2004-09-08-tuition-table.htm http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/education/2004-09-08-tui... Today an Ivy League tuition year will set you back around 40k (possibly more) http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/...

mseebach 14y ago

When you get a chance, go find a copy of your national budget and find out how much of it goes towards education, health and infrastructure. Then stop using that argument.

rguillebert 14y ago
http://voila-le-travail.data-projet.com/budget2012 http://voila-le-travail.data-projet.com/budget2012 in proportion, I think the budget is fine, more than 1/4th goes to education (if you include universities)
- mseebach 14y ago
  Wow, that's a great visualisation! Total: 676,625 millions (hover on the top bar, I can tell what the 366 bln in the headline refers to?). Schools: 62,330 mln = 9.21% Higher ed+research: 25,439 mln = 3.76% Transport: 4,307 mln = 0.64% Health: 1,379 mln = 0.2% For a grand total of 13.81%. I'm not sure how you get to 1/4 going to education?
  - rguillebert 14y ago
    There's an error with the 676,625 millions I think, the correct total is 366,000 millions If you look at this one from 2011 : http://www.performance-publique.budget.gouv.fr/fileadmin/medias/images/budget/essentiel/depenses_missions_2011_01.jpg http://www.performance-publique.budget.gouv.fr/fileadmin/med... you can see that 23.6% went to education in 2011
    - mseebach 14y ago
      OK. Not being fluent in French, and not knowing the vocabulary used in France, I can't evaluate these and find other sources. But, for one thing, however, the pie chart doesn't seem to include debt payments. Also, a proper comparison would include the regions.
      - rguillebert 14y ago