4 ms·

Have you actually been to france? You most certainly can "fire people who aren't working out". The car companies put thousands of people on the streets when

Have you actually been to france? You most certainly can "fire people who aren't working out". The car companies put thousands of people on the streets when the economy tanked. France also tends to have long "probation" periods to ensure they can do exactly that: fire people who aren't working out. What you can't do in France as easily is screw people the way you can in places that aren't as interested in worker's rights (e.g. Zynga and the "google cook"). > to the 35 hour employee work week Again, if you'd actually worked in France you'd know this doesn't apply to everyone. IT workers work long hours in France just like anywhere else. But it seems you also have a misconception about how human productivity works if you think 60 hours a week (you didn't say this, I'm just guessing based on your tone) will give you a more productive year than 35 or 40 hours.

jgrahamc 14y ago
Did you actually read the first line of my comment? "But it seems you also have a misconception about how human productivity works if you think 60 hours a week (you didn't say this, I'm just guessing based on your tone) will give you a more productive year than 35 or 40 hours." No, I didn't say that and you shouldn't read that into what I was saying. I was specifically comparing the situation for startups that I've seen having worked in them in the UK, US and France. And I am specifically NOT wishing to comment on the moral or political motivations for the work environment in those countries. Each country has developed its own history and culture which I do not seek to criticize. My original point was that I do not believe France is a good place for startups. That is all.
- flyinRyan 14y ago
  >Did you actually read the first line of my comment? The part where you claimed to have worked in france? I don't know you, so why should I take your word at face value when the rest of your comment seems to suggest that you actually haven't worked in france?
  - jalanco 14y ago
    It took me about 5 seconds to find John Graham-Cumming's bio: http://blog.jgc.org/2010/03/my-bio.html http://blog.jgc.org/2010/03/my-bio.html "As a programmer he has worked in Silicon Valley and New York, the UK, Germany and France and currently works at CloudFlare."
  - sgdesign 14y ago
    You could do worse things with your day than learning who JGC is.
shin_lao 14y ago
Hi, I run a business for a couple of years in France now and you're factually wrong and mixing things up. There's a difference between a lay off for economical reasons by a big company (which can afford it) and a small company trying to get rid of an inappropriate person (extremely hard). Even getting rid of someone during probation can be cancelled in trial and become very expensive. I'm not saying employment at will is the solution, but the system we have in France doesn't work.
- cdavid 14y ago
  Labour laws are one of the big issue in France, you're right. I would love for the current gvt to negociate the end of CDI, with a simpler way to fire bad people, in exchange for a much better unemployment insurance. I am not sure how the economics would work, but the current system where a large minority is working under shitty contracts because CDI is too expensive is a shame. That's a recurring desire from many economists both from the left and right in France.
  - shin_lao 14y ago
    "Much better unemployment insurance" => I don't follow you, there's already one of the most generous unemployment insurance of the world in France.
    - cdavid 14y ago
      Well, for once, you need to give something back if you need to take something, that's basic negotiation tactics :) That's an approach largely defended by economists who are not especially on the left, like Wyplosz (see here if you can read French: http://econo.free.fr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=2&codenote=168 http://econo.free.fr/index.php?option=com_content&task=v...). Of course, given the current climate (austerity, etc...), that's not gonna happen any time soon.

jgrahamc 14y ago

Did you actually read the first line of my comment? "But it seems you also have a misconception about how human productivity works if you think 60 hours a week (you didn't say this, I'm just guessing based on your tone) will give you a more productive year than 35 or 40 hours." No, I didn't say that and you shouldn't read that into what I was saying. I was specifically comparing the situation for startups that I've seen having worked in them in the UK, US and France. And I am specifically NOT wishing to comment on the moral or political motivations for the work environment in those countries. Each country has developed its own history and culture which I do not seek to criticize. My original point was that I do not believe France is a good place for startups. That is all.

flyinRyan 14y ago
>Did you actually read the first line of my comment? The part where you claimed to have worked in france? I don't know you, so why should I take your word at face value when the rest of your comment seems to suggest that you actually haven't worked in france?
- jalanco 14y ago
  It took me about 5 seconds to find John Graham-Cumming's bio: http://blog.jgc.org/2010/03/my-bio.html http://blog.jgc.org/2010/03/my-bio.html "As a programmer he has worked in Silicon Valley and New York, the UK, Germany and France and currently works at CloudFlare."
- sgdesign 14y ago
  You could do worse things with your day than learning who JGC is.

shin_lao 14y ago

Hi, I run a business for a couple of years in France now and you're factually wrong and mixing things up. There's a difference between a lay off for economical reasons by a big company (which can afford it) and a small company trying to get rid of an inappropriate person (extremely hard). Even getting rid of someone during probation can be cancelled in trial and become very expensive. I'm not saying employment at will is the solution, but the system we have in France doesn't work.

cdavid 14y ago
Labour laws are one of the big issue in France, you're right. I would love for the current gvt to negociate the end of CDI, with a simpler way to fire bad people, in exchange for a much better unemployment insurance. I am not sure how the economics would work, but the current system where a large minority is working under shitty contracts because CDI is too expensive is a shame. That's a recurring desire from many economists both from the left and right in France.
- shin_lao 14y ago
  "Much better unemployment insurance" => I don't follow you, there's already one of the most generous unemployment insurance of the world in France.
  - cdavid 14y ago
    Well, for once, you need to give something back if you need to take something, that's basic negotiation tactics :) That's an approach largely defended by economists who are not especially on the left, like Wyplosz (see here if you can read French: http://econo.free.fr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=2&codenote=168 http://econo.free.fr/index.php?option=com_content&task=v...). Of course, given the current climate (austerity, etc...), that's not gonna happen any time soon.