3 ms·

Agreed. It's the playbook of social interaction written out. Nothing offensive about that.

collingreen 11mo ago
Sometimes we find it distasteful to have things we're fully aware of explicitly spelled out. A trite quip here is "nobody wants to see how the sausage is made".
- etangent 11mo ago
  100% correct.
- guy2345 11mo ago
  [flagged]
  - tomhow 11mo ago
    Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
    - guy2345 11mo ago
      [dead]
- jamilton 11mo ago
  Yeah. I wonder why that is - is it because it highlights a conflict between our actions and values? If left unexamined, it's a non-issue, so having it spelled out feels like a problem being created?
  - switchbak 11mo ago
    I would much rather assume the people I'm interacting with are honest and conveying their real feelings, vs playing some (probably) Machiavellian game with N levels of dishonesty and manipulation from what could easily be a malevolent person at the core. At least that tends to be the assumption when you pick up on a lack of authenticity in this way. When you have a real indication of dealing with a master manipulator, it's very understandable that you should use an abundance of caution. That's probably an instinct in us at this level. Of course everyone is at least a little aware that they're putting on a bit of a ruse with their public persona, but that needs to be tethered to some level of authenticity or you'll just be sending out Patrick Bateman vibes.
    - throwaway2037 11mo ago
      > When you have a real indication of dealing with a master manipulator This statement seems like a paradox. Forgive my "No True Scotsman" example. If the person is such a "master manipulator" what indications do you have? The social normies will miss them, or will think they are the ones making the suggestions/decisions. This is the hallmark of master craft sales people.
    - avhception 11mo ago
      This strikes me as a glass-half-empty interpretation. Why is the stuff from the blog post necessarily machiavellian and manipulative? I didn't read any of that into that blog post. Rather, it was about how to create win-win situations where the people involved genuinely enjoy each others company. No need for bad intentions here.
    - mewpmewp2 11mo ago
      Wouldn't you think it is more important what the goal for the other person is? If their goal is to enrich and make both of your lives better, does it matter whether they consicously use social techniques or have natural automatic ability to do so? It is also autism vs psychopathy. Patrick Bateman is nowhere close to someone autistic trying to learn those socially successful behaviours. Patrick Bateman is a terrible human being not because they are inauthentic, he is a terrible human being because of the acts he did and wanted to do.
- ribosometronome 11mo ago
  It may be the first time many people are actively considering these things if they haven't generally felt social struggles / aren't on the spectrum.
- skeeter2020 11mo ago
  Sometimes doing something explicit that is typically done without thought or plan feels phony and off. This is such a scenario.
  - pixl97 11mo ago
    Embracing the bliss of ignorance.
  - robocat 11mo ago
    That's not what I got from the article. Firstly they seem to be saying that they were not seen as phony (hard to judge). Sure they're using tricks, but they were copying tricks off other people! Not all social interaction is genuinely raw. I thought the article was more about leaning into their own style, becoming more intuitive over time.
ghurtado 11mo ago
I would take it further and say that the more light we bring to this subject, the less it becomes the exclusive domain of snake oil salesmen and the "sales tips 101" type books, and the more inoculated the general public becomes to manipulation.
- overfeed 11mo ago
  Why dontou consider it "manipulation"? Would you consider what goes into you resume, or performance/promotion packet "manipulation"? In every interaction there are spoken and unspoken rules, and those who excel tend to be those who can understand the subtext and express themselves effectively.
  - zozbot234 11mo ago
    It depends, of course. Some people might fill their resume with outright BS, and this would be widely regarded as manipulative.
    - mewpmewp2 11mo ago
      Depends how you define outright BS. I bet most people at least cherrypick the best data points amongst thousands of possible, giving a look that doesn't really represent them as a whole. And then they omit some undesirable things. Similar to how people on social media will only post their best moments, giving inaccurate representation of their lives and themselves while overall causing others to feel like they are missing out, etc. So here is the skill of being able to cherrypick data to give the best representation of yourself as opposed to true average honest overview of oneself. Then the skill of avoiding answering questions you don't want to answer to by answering by talking about what you want to talk about (think politicians). Same is with real life interactions. Among 1000s of things you could say or do there is always some that are more effective than others in reaching a certain goal, whether it is getting a job, making a sale, convincing someone, making a friend or whatever. Is it manipulative only if you make up something or if you are able to get people to do what you want by being able to cherrypick the most convincing ideas, arguments, facts etc.
gausswho 11mo ago
A self-help book that took off saying the quiet part out loud is How to Win Friends & Influence People. It predates the 'influencer'.
- kragen 11mo ago
  https://dn720004.ca.archive.org/0/items/english-collections-1/How%20To%20Win%20Friends%20And%20Influence%20People%20-%20Carnegie%2C%20Dale.pdf https://dn720004.ca.archive.org/0/items/english-collections-...

Sometimes we find it distasteful to have things we're fully aware of explicitly spelled out. A trite quip here is "nobody wants to see how the sausage is made".

etangent 11mo ago
100% correct.
guy2345 11mo ago
[flagged]
- tomhow 11mo ago
  Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
  - guy2345 11mo ago
    [dead]
jamilton 11mo ago
Yeah. I wonder why that is - is it because it highlights a conflict between our actions and values? If left unexamined, it's a non-issue, so having it spelled out feels like a problem being created?
- switchbak 11mo ago
  I would much rather assume the people I'm interacting with are honest and conveying their real feelings, vs playing some (probably) Machiavellian game with N levels of dishonesty and manipulation from what could easily be a malevolent person at the core. At least that tends to be the assumption when you pick up on a lack of authenticity in this way. When you have a real indication of dealing with a master manipulator, it's very understandable that you should use an abundance of caution. That's probably an instinct in us at this level. Of course everyone is at least a little aware that they're putting on a bit of a ruse with their public persona, but that needs to be tethered to some level of authenticity or you'll just be sending out Patrick Bateman vibes.
  - throwaway2037 11mo ago
    > When you have a real indication of dealing with a master manipulator This statement seems like a paradox. Forgive my "No True Scotsman" example. If the person is such a "master manipulator" what indications do you have? The social normies will miss them, or will think they are the ones making the suggestions/decisions. This is the hallmark of master craft sales people.
  - avhception 11mo ago
    This strikes me as a glass-half-empty interpretation. Why is the stuff from the blog post necessarily machiavellian and manipulative? I didn't read any of that into that blog post. Rather, it was about how to create win-win situations where the people involved genuinely enjoy each others company. No need for bad intentions here.
  - mewpmewp2 11mo ago
    Wouldn't you think it is more important what the goal for the other person is? If their goal is to enrich and make both of your lives better, does it matter whether they consicously use social techniques or have natural automatic ability to do so? It is also autism vs psychopathy. Patrick Bateman is nowhere close to someone autistic trying to learn those socially successful behaviours. Patrick Bateman is a terrible human being not because they are inauthentic, he is a terrible human being because of the acts he did and wanted to do.
ribosometronome 11mo ago
It may be the first time many people are actively considering these things if they haven't generally felt social struggles / aren't on the spectrum.
skeeter2020 11mo ago
Sometimes doing something explicit that is typically done without thought or plan feels phony and off. This is such a scenario.
- pixl97 11mo ago
  Embracing the bliss of ignorance.
- robocat 11mo ago
  That's not what I got from the article. Firstly they seem to be saying that they were not seen as phony (hard to judge). Sure they're using tricks, but they were copying tricks off other people! Not all social interaction is genuinely raw. I thought the article was more about leaning into their own style, becoming more intuitive over time.

ghurtado 11mo ago

I would take it further and say that the more light we bring to this subject, the less it becomes the exclusive domain of snake oil salesmen and the "sales tips 101" type books, and the more inoculated the general public becomes to manipulation.

overfeed 11mo ago
Why dontou consider it "manipulation"? Would you consider what goes into you resume, or performance/promotion packet "manipulation"? In every interaction there are spoken and unspoken rules, and those who excel tend to be those who can understand the subtext and express themselves effectively.
- zozbot234 11mo ago
  It depends, of course. Some people might fill their resume with outright BS, and this would be widely regarded as manipulative.
  - mewpmewp2 11mo ago
    Depends how you define outright BS. I bet most people at least cherrypick the best data points amongst thousands of possible, giving a look that doesn't really represent them as a whole. And then they omit some undesirable things. Similar to how people on social media will only post their best moments, giving inaccurate representation of their lives and themselves while overall causing others to feel like they are missing out, etc. So here is the skill of being able to cherrypick data to give the best representation of yourself as opposed to true average honest overview of oneself. Then the skill of avoiding answering questions you don't want to answer to by answering by talking about what you want to talk about (think politicians). Same is with real life interactions. Among 1000s of things you could say or do there is always some that are more effective than others in reaching a certain goal, whether it is getting a job, making a sale, convincing someone, making a friend or whatever. Is it manipulative only if you make up something or if you are able to get people to do what you want by being able to cherrypick the most convincing ideas, arguments, facts etc.

gausswho 11mo ago

A self-help book that took off saying the quiet part out loud is How to Win Friends & Influence People. It predates the 'influencer'.

kragen 11mo ago
https://dn720004.ca.archive.org/0/items/english-collections-1/How%20To%20Win%20Friends%20And%20Influence%20People%20-%20Carnegie%2C%20Dale.pdf https://dn720004.ca.archive.org/0/items/english-collections-...