5 ms·

The war crime is when Hamas and Hezbollah fire rockets indiscriminately into Israel to kill innocent civilians. Any and all means are and will always be justif

The war crime is when Hamas and Hezbollah fire rockets indiscriminately into Israel to kill innocent civilians. Any and all means are and will always be justified to prevent that.

baked_beanz 11mo ago
...and destroying or damaging >2/3rds of all structures in Gaza and killing tens of thousands of civilians with airstrikes isn't? Obviously yes, Hamas and Hezbollah indiscriminately firing rockets at Israel consistute war crimes. I assume you must agree that Israel's systematic targeting of schools, hospitals, mosques, and refugee camps would also qualify?
- sophrosyne42 11mo ago
  Destroying buildings due to being booby trapped by Hamas; booby trapping I seem to recall was mentioned earlier in this thread as a war crime.
  - ebbi 11mo ago
    Any evidence of that, that is not Israeli 'evidence'?
    - sophrosyne42 11mo ago
      People from Hamas say they do it. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/videos/international/hamas-booby-traps-israeli-soldiers-in-tunnel-shaft-then-blows-it-up-dramatic-attack-in-gaza/videoshow/120429545.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/videos/international/ham...
      - ebbi 11mo ago
        So one article about a tunnel shaft is what you have come up with? Nice work.
        sophrosyne42 11mo ago
        I don't think it's unreasonable to expect Hamas would do the same with buildings as tunnels.
  - baked_beanz 11mo ago
    You're claiming that every building destroyed by an Israeli airstrike was booby trapped by Hamas...? Even if that were the case, destroying those buildings with civilians inside is still a war crime
    - sophrosyne42 11mo ago
      I'm claiming there is a reason that Israel destroys buildings you neglect to mention. Recognizing that reason strongly undermines your assertion of systematic targetting. There is a fog of war, and war is messy, so a charitable outlook should exclude blase confidence about the matter. You're mixing two different things with the civilians in buildings. The mass building destruction we see is done on buildings after evacuation to dismantle booby trapped buildings. Israel does frequently do strikes on buildings or infrastructure that contain civilians, but that is a different kind of action with different reasons and circumstances (e.g. collateral damage of strikes on military targets, etc.)
      - ebbi 11mo ago
        I love how confidently you reply in a way that makes you think Israel just has a right to do it. Like they have a right to just level buildings because they think it's booby trapped. You're someone that has deepthroated the Israeli narrative, with no critical thinking whatsoever. I hope, for your own sake, you start to see more of the reality, as defending a violent regime like this can have an impact on ones soul, which will affect - if not already - other areas of your life.
        sophrosyne42 11mo ago
        Did I say Israel has a right to do all these things? No, I did not. I described the situation and their reasoning. Now Israel does have a right to defend itself. Hamas, the government of Gaza, forfeited their relatively peaceful situation when they openly attacked Israel. That doesn't mean everything Israel does is unquestionable. There is plenty open to criticism. There is also a fog of war, and much is unknown now that will be revealed as time goes on. But that also doesn't mean that we should dismiss everythjng Israel says just because they say it. A little more nuamce and curiosity is the most ethical approach to this inherently morally bankrupt conflict. The mere existence of a state per se is violent, and given that both Israel and Palestine insists on having mutually incompatible states over the same territory, there is no other option but endless bloodshed until both sides commit to a conciliatory settlement. Until that day, a day which may never come, since everyone is hellbent on egging their respective favored side on, things will simply continue as is until one or both sides are destroyed. Since Israel unquestionably has more power, it will likely survive. There is no morally unquestionable option, but I think anyone who has a stake in the livelihood of Palestinians would be interested in stopping the conflict as soon as possible and making a settlement, even an imperfect one. In such a quandry, the only ethical option is to remain open and curious, be willing to look at facts and evaluate claims instead of jumping to conclusions, and refrain from asserting an uncertain narrative as fact when there are competing narratives and counterexamples.
  - lysp 11mo ago
    See if you can identify in any of these clips, a single non-damaged building. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcqIDKf1uYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcqIDKf1uYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yvJiW-Ndj0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yvJiW-Ndj0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFUkfmnCR7U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFUkfmnCR7U
    - sophrosyne42 11mo ago
      It is pretty trivial to look up recent sattellite imagery and find undestroyed buildings, but that takes more interest in facts than finding youtube videos
      - lysp 11mo ago
        As you're well aware, simply dismissing these as random "youtube videos" is disingenuous. The footage is sourced from the Associated Press (AP) which you have no doubt heard of. It has 235 news bureaus in 94 countries worldwide, and has been around for ~180 years, also having won 59 Pulitzer prizes for its journalism. Your claim that buildings are being destroyed because they were "booby trapped" comes from a partisan source (the Israeli Government/IDF), which is an active participant in this conflict. Their claims are a liability limiting exercise and it's in their best interests do downplay destruction they have caused. Statements from a government at war regarding their own military conduct are basically a PR exercise unless they have been independently verified. Plus independent verification is quite hard, as the same partisan source has prevented independent media from gaining access into the strip which stops independent verification of both side's claims. Do you have independent sources for the booby trapping other than IDF or news organisations repeating their press releases? Basically anything from international NGOs / neutral observers that confirm that houses are booby trapped to such a scale that it necessitates the flattening of entire residential blocks? While you say it's trivial to find a house with no damage, that was not my point. My point was from viewing the drone footage - that's view covers entire suburbs - there is not one single intact building in all 3 separate videos. But since you mentioned "recently satellite imagery", lets look at the actual data provided by experts who analyse it. The United Nations Satellite Centre (UNOSAT), released its Comprehensive Damage Assessment in late October 2025. So it's 3 weeks old. Completely fresh and up to date. * It uses high-res imagery from as recent as 11 October 2025 * It tracks damage over time rather than just a before/after assessment https://www.un.org/unispal/document/unosat-gaza-strip-damage-assessment-31oct25/ https://www.un.org/unispal/document/unosat-gaza-strip-damage... Quoting the summary: > According to satellite imagery analysis, as of 11 October 2025, approximately 81% of all structures in the Gaza Strip are damaged. Among the damaged structures, UNOSAT identified 123,464 destroyed structures, 17,116 severely damaged structures, 33,857 moderately damaged structures, and 23,836 possibly damaged structures for a total of 198,273 affected structures. Compared to the 8 July 2025 assessment, this corresponds to a 4% increase in total affected structures, and an 18% increase in destroyed structures, indicating worsening damage. An estimated 320,622 housing units have been damaged, 12% more than on 08 July 2025. Their satellite analysis shows: * 23,464 destroyed structures * 17,116 severely damaged structures * 33,857 moderately damaged structures * 23,836 possibly damaged structures * A total of 198,273 affected structures It also shows the destruction of housing / infrastructure has been both systematic and continual over the past two years. Having 81% of all structures damaged (and 320k housing units) puts extreme doubt to the claim that it is "just making it safe from booby traps".
ebbi 11mo ago
Agree that is a war crime. It is also a war crime to carry out what is known as the Nakba - ethnically cleansing and displacing hundreds and thousands of Palestinians. It is a crime illegally occupy land that does not belong to you. It is a crime to maintain an apartheid state. It is a crime to hold 'prisoners' without any charges It is a crime to rape said prisoners. It is also disgusting to have a society that riots when said rapists are called out for their actions. It is a crime to continually bomb and kill Palestinians for just existing. It is a crime to continually kill Palestinians for no reason via 'mowing the grass' exercises It is a crime to crime to kill Palestinians when they peacefully protest It is a crime to indiscriminately bomb Gaza because some Palestinians have had enough of being subjected to sub-human conditions. So if you say 'any and all means are justified to prevent that', then any and all means should be justified to prevent the above, right?
- galagawinkle489 11mo ago
  [flagged]
  - ebbi 11mo ago
    Thanks for exposing your clear bias. Nothing productive will come of this discussion.
    - vladgur 11mo ago
      Which of those historical facts you find biased? Ps humans are biased. Humans need to be able to have respectful discussions
    - sophrosyne42 11mo ago
      After WW2 Germans were literally removed from certain territories and the land given to Poland. It's honestly not much different from the Nakba. I find an immediate refusal to address points of history like this and hide behind accusations of bias to weaken your credibility. War is a horrible and inherently immoral thing. We do no favors to our humanity or othercs by pretending it's a simple black and white matter when it is really not.
MomsAVoxell 11mo ago
Prosecute All The War Criminals, But Start With YOUR OWN FIRST. Only then will you have the moral altitude required to gain the support of the rest of the world in prosecuting “their” war criminals.

The war crime is when Hamas and Hezbollah fire rockets indiscriminately into Israel to kill innocent civilians. Any and all means are and will always be justified to prevent that.

baked_beanz 11mo ago

...and destroying or damaging >2/3rds of all structures in Gaza and killing tens of thousands of civilians with airstrikes isn't? Obviously yes, Hamas and Hezbollah indiscriminately firing rockets at Israel consistute war crimes. I assume you must agree that Israel's systematic targeting of schools, hospitals, mosques, and refugee camps would also qualify?

sophrosyne42 11mo ago
Destroying buildings due to being booby trapped by Hamas; booby trapping I seem to recall was mentioned earlier in this thread as a war crime.
- ebbi 11mo ago
  Any evidence of that, that is not Israeli 'evidence'?
  - sophrosyne42 11mo ago
    People from Hamas say they do it. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/videos/international/hamas-booby-traps-israeli-soldiers-in-tunnel-shaft-then-blows-it-up-dramatic-attack-in-gaza/videoshow/120429545.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/videos/international/ham...
    - ebbi 11mo ago
      So one article about a tunnel shaft is what you have come up with? Nice work.
      - sophrosyne42 11mo ago
        I don't think it's unreasonable to expect Hamas would do the same with buildings as tunnels.
- baked_beanz 11mo ago
  You're claiming that every building destroyed by an Israeli airstrike was booby trapped by Hamas...? Even if that were the case, destroying those buildings with civilians inside is still a war crime
  - sophrosyne42 11mo ago
    I'm claiming there is a reason that Israel destroys buildings you neglect to mention. Recognizing that reason strongly undermines your assertion of systematic targetting. There is a fog of war, and war is messy, so a charitable outlook should exclude blase confidence about the matter. You're mixing two different things with the civilians in buildings. The mass building destruction we see is done on buildings after evacuation to dismantle booby trapped buildings. Israel does frequently do strikes on buildings or infrastructure that contain civilians, but that is a different kind of action with different reasons and circumstances (e.g. collateral damage of strikes on military targets, etc.)
    - ebbi 11mo ago
      I love how confidently you reply in a way that makes you think Israel just has a right to do it. Like they have a right to just level buildings because they think it's booby trapped. You're someone that has deepthroated the Israeli narrative, with no critical thinking whatsoever. I hope, for your own sake, you start to see more of the reality, as defending a violent regime like this can have an impact on ones soul, which will affect - if not already - other areas of your life.
      - sophrosyne42 11mo ago
        Did I say Israel has a right to do all these things? No, I did not. I described the situation and their reasoning. Now Israel does have a right to defend itself. Hamas, the government of Gaza, forfeited their relatively peaceful situation when they openly attacked Israel. That doesn't mean everything Israel does is unquestionable. There is plenty open to criticism. There is also a fog of war, and much is unknown now that will be revealed as time goes on. But that also doesn't mean that we should dismiss everythjng Israel says just because they say it. A little more nuamce and curiosity is the most ethical approach to this inherently morally bankrupt conflict. The mere existence of a state per se is violent, and given that both Israel and Palestine insists on having mutually incompatible states over the same territory, there is no other option but endless bloodshed until both sides commit to a conciliatory settlement. Until that day, a day which may never come, since everyone is hellbent on egging their respective favored side on, things will simply continue as is until one or both sides are destroyed. Since Israel unquestionably has more power, it will likely survive. There is no morally unquestionable option, but I think anyone who has a stake in the livelihood of Palestinians would be interested in stopping the conflict as soon as possible and making a settlement, even an imperfect one. In such a quandry, the only ethical option is to remain open and curious, be willing to look at facts and evaluate claims instead of jumping to conclusions, and refrain from asserting an uncertain narrative as fact when there are competing narratives and counterexamples.
- lysp 11mo ago
  See if you can identify in any of these clips, a single non-damaged building. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcqIDKf1uYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcqIDKf1uYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yvJiW-Ndj0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yvJiW-Ndj0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFUkfmnCR7U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFUkfmnCR7U
  - sophrosyne42 11mo ago
    It is pretty trivial to look up recent sattellite imagery and find undestroyed buildings, but that takes more interest in facts than finding youtube videos
    - lysp 11mo ago
      As you're well aware, simply dismissing these as random "youtube videos" is disingenuous. The footage is sourced from the Associated Press (AP) which you have no doubt heard of. It has 235 news bureaus in 94 countries worldwide, and has been around for ~180 years, also having won 59 Pulitzer prizes for its journalism. Your claim that buildings are being destroyed because they were "booby trapped" comes from a partisan source (the Israeli Government/IDF), which is an active participant in this conflict. Their claims are a liability limiting exercise and it's in their best interests do downplay destruction they have caused. Statements from a government at war regarding their own military conduct are basically a PR exercise unless they have been independently verified. Plus independent verification is quite hard, as the same partisan source has prevented independent media from gaining access into the strip which stops independent verification of both side's claims. Do you have independent sources for the booby trapping other than IDF or news organisations repeating their press releases? Basically anything from international NGOs / neutral observers that confirm that houses are booby trapped to such a scale that it necessitates the flattening of entire residential blocks? While you say it's trivial to find a house with no damage, that was not my point. My point was from viewing the drone footage - that's view covers entire suburbs - there is not one single intact building in all 3 separate videos. But since you mentioned "recently satellite imagery", lets look at the actual data provided by experts who analyse it. The United Nations Satellite Centre (UNOSAT), released its Comprehensive Damage Assessment in late October 2025. So it's 3 weeks old. Completely fresh and up to date. * It uses high-res imagery from as recent as 11 October 2025 * It tracks damage over time rather than just a before/after assessment https://www.un.org/unispal/document/unosat-gaza-strip-damage-assessment-31oct25/ https://www.un.org/unispal/document/unosat-gaza-strip-damage... Quoting the summary: > According to satellite imagery analysis, as of 11 October 2025, approximately 81% of all structures in the Gaza Strip are damaged. Among the damaged structures, UNOSAT identified 123,464 destroyed structures, 17,116 severely damaged structures, 33,857 moderately damaged structures, and 23,836 possibly damaged structures for a total of 198,273 affected structures. Compared to the 8 July 2025 assessment, this corresponds to a 4% increase in total affected structures, and an 18% increase in destroyed structures, indicating worsening damage. An estimated 320,622 housing units have been damaged, 12% more than on 08 July 2025. Their satellite analysis shows: * 23,464 destroyed structures * 17,116 severely damaged structures * 33,857 moderately damaged structures * 23,836 possibly damaged structures * A total of 198,273 affected structures It also shows the destruction of housing / infrastructure has been both systematic and continual over the past two years. Having 81% of all structures damaged (and 320k housing units) puts extreme doubt to the claim that it is "just making it safe from booby traps".

ebbi 11mo ago

Agree that is a war crime. It is also a war crime to carry out what is known as the Nakba - ethnically cleansing and displacing hundreds and thousands of Palestinians. It is a crime illegally occupy land that does not belong to you. It is a crime to maintain an apartheid state. It is a crime to hold 'prisoners' without any charges It is a crime to rape said prisoners. It is also disgusting to have a society that riots when said rapists are called out for their actions. It is a crime to continually bomb and kill Palestinians for just existing. It is a crime to continually kill Palestinians for no reason via 'mowing the grass' exercises It is a crime to crime to kill Palestinians when they peacefully protest It is a crime to indiscriminately bomb Gaza because some Palestinians have had enough of being subjected to sub-human conditions. So if you say 'any and all means are justified to prevent that', then any and all means should be justified to prevent the above, right?

galagawinkle489 11mo ago
[flagged]
- ebbi 11mo ago
  Thanks for exposing your clear bias. Nothing productive will come of this discussion.
  - vladgur 11mo ago
    Which of those historical facts you find biased? Ps humans are biased. Humans need to be able to have respectful discussions
  - sophrosyne42 11mo ago
    After WW2 Germans were literally removed from certain territories and the land given to Poland. It's honestly not much different from the Nakba. I find an immediate refusal to address points of history like this and hide behind accusations of bias to weaken your credibility. War is a horrible and inherently immoral thing. We do no favors to our humanity or othercs by pretending it's a simple black and white matter when it is really not.

MomsAVoxell 11mo ago

Prosecute All The War Criminals, But Start With YOUR OWN FIRST. Only then will you have the moral altitude required to gain the support of the rest of the world in prosecuting “their” war criminals.