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Minecraft creator attacks Microsoft's Windows 8 plan

44 points by bootload 14y ago

kleiba 14y ago
From the article: Mr Persson revealed his views in two tweets. From twitter: Got an email from microsoft, wanting to help "certify" minecraft for win 8. I told them to stop trying to ruin the pc as an open platform. I'd rather have minecraft not run on win 8 at all than to play along. Maybe we can convince a few people not to switch to win 8 that way..
- ZoFreX 14y ago
  But certification isn't new, and is still optional... I don't understand why developers are up in arms over it? Also, is it intrinsically bad? It's proving that the software you installed is from a particular publisher and hasn't been tampered with, isn't that a good thing?
  - k-mcgrady 14y ago
    I think it's a minority of developers that are up in arms against in. As a user and developer I've welcomed it on the Mac. Developers can easily certify their apps and it gives customers confidence. If you choose not to certify your app you don't lose out, your software will still run. It will be pretty much the same on Windows (although I find their policies a bit more restrictive). If you don't want to certify, it doesn't prevent your software from working.
    - morsch 14y ago
      But if you certify and offer a shop for certified apps where the shop owner gets a cut this creates a huge incentive for the owner to do everything in its power to get more apps into the shop.
      - k-mcgrady 14y ago
        There will always be apps people need that don't fit in the store. e.g. 18+ games won't be available but lots of PC users want to play them. If Microsoft made it so only certified apps could be installed they would lose a lot of users to alternative platforms. People are looking at this like it is a slippery slope. It could be but it's highly unlikely as it would hurt consumers and the barriers to switching OS aren't that high for most people.
        morsch 14y ago
        There's no need to completely prevent non-certified content from being accessed, you just make it a second class citizen, e.g. by making installation more difficult or restricting the access to native interfaces. E.g. you can increasingly fall back to distributing stuff that's incompatible with Apple's morals using HTML5, so customers don't need to switch devices to access some version of it. Barriers to switching are falling as more people are using cross-platform stuff (first and foremost, web content and apps) but at the same time they are increasing as people get a large portfolio of content that is either not available or that they haven't bought for other platforms. E.g. switch from iOS to Android and lose access to game X that's not available on Android, app Y that's available but you only bought an iOS license and, of course, convenient access to your collection of iTunes music and videos. Contrast this to a waning desktop era where most casual users seemingly only used and paid for three pieces of software (office, browser, something else) and had much of their other content in cross-platform containers (CD/DVD, MP3, Xvid, office files).
      - cooldeal 14y ago
        There is no cut for Microsoft for desktop apps while Apple takes a cut for OS X apps sold from the app store. But for desktop apps in the Windows Store, it will be only linked to the dev's website. Downloads and updates are handled by the developer.
  - daliusd 14y ago
    Could you name second bigest Android app store? I think there are at least two problems: 1) average user will not download anything what's not in win8 app store; a) There are extra burden to upload app to store and pass QA process (I think the only exception here is Google). Haven't you heard horror stories about clueless QA people? 2) there are extra warnings for apps that are not from win8 app store (like in Mac OS X). E.g. I find it annoying because I use relatively lot of tools that are not from app store. Again average user might prefer safe way over risky one and it is problem for indie (game) developers.
eckyptang 14y ago
I still think he's being a sensationalist. Even the BBC are less biased here. There is no requirement to get it certified and you can just use minecraft how it is now without having to go near an app store. This is all hot air.
- Toshio 14y ago
  The BBC has always been biased toward microsoft.
  - eckyptang 14y ago
    It definitely hasn't. They've been terribly critical over the years. I think the issue is that they are not as biased against them as the rest of the industry who know how to get clicks for Microsoft bashing.
    - Toshio 14y ago
      Have you noticed a pattern in BBC's malware reporting? When it's about windows malware, they deliberately avoid mentioning the name windows, instead calling it "PC malware" or "computer virus". But when it's about Android malware, they make darn sure to call it what it is, Android malware. In that case they don't do the dance of calling it, say, "mobile malware". I don't know about you, but to me this is a blatant form of bias.
      - eckyptang 14y ago
        Hmm like? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12067295 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12067295
    - cormullion 14y ago
      Some think so. http://www.slated.org/bbc_microsoft_bias_summary http://www.slated.org/bbc_microsoft_bias_summary But I think they're biased against everybody. At heart, journalists tend toward cynicism...
Toshio 14y ago
BBC is using their platform to issue counter-attacks to legitimate complaints by independent developers. Nothing new here people, move along.
mtgx 14y ago
The thing is Windows 8 is radically changing a lot of stuff and that won't sit well with most businesses in the PC world. Maybe Windows 8 won't give Valve or Notch a death blow by removing the "desktop mode", but I think it's pretty obvious that Microsoft wants the future of Windows to be "Metro-only", and these guys can see that. So it's not Windows 8 per se that they are mad about. It's the whole direction Windows is taking. If they and others can get Windows 8 to fail, and get Microsoft to revert back to the old style Windows, then they win. If not, and Windows 8 is successful, they lose, because you can bet Windows 9 will be even more locked into Metro and with fewer options or less access for the desktop mode.
- freehunter 14y ago
  I'm not sure Microsoft is explicitly wanting this change. It's a reaction to the shifting computing environment; the iPad showed that the PC isn't the only platform that people want to use, and that some people only want to use tablet computers. I feel Microsoft would have been more than happy to keep developing Windows the way they always have, but they've seen the writing on the wall. Windows isn't what the users want. Microsoft didn't start the locked down tablet market. They're just the newest player. If you want to assign blame, blame the users.
  - rbanffy 14y ago
    Microsoft is the only company demanding the ARM devices other companies make to be locked down. What Apple does to its hardware is their problem, but it's not Microsoft's business to demand hardware manufacturers to deliberately kill competition on software (which would, ultimately, benefit both manufacturers and end-users).
    - cooldeal 14y ago
      No that's plain wrong. Microsoft is demanding that only for Windows RT tablets. The same manufacturer is free to make tablets that run Android or Ubuntu or whatever.
      - 14y ago
citricsquid 14y ago
Not related to the point at hand, but why don't people mention the millions of copies sold on other platforms? More than 7.5 million copies of the title have been sold Minecraft has sold 7.5 Million (+) of the PC version, it has also sold millions of copies of the iOS version, the Android version and the Xbox version which just recently broke 5 (edit: sorry, 4) million sales. Seems strange not to say something like: More than 14 million copies of the game have been sold across all platforms, {relevant figure for relevant platform here}. Although maybe with the article being about the PC version it's assumed readers will understand the figures are for the PC version alone.
- ido 14y ago
  It's really surprising (to me) that 10k people per day are still buying pc minecraft. I'd think pretty much everyone that was interested in a game like that would have gotten it by now? How can there still be 10k new people per day (over what, 3 years now?) that have just found out about minecraft?
  - gavanwoolery 14y ago
    I have found that kids are particularly attracted to it, and a new generation of kids matures every year - most of them have access to funds, so it is often purchased on special occasions (i.e. birthdays). It is kind of the new Legos for kids. They had drawing from kids up on the wall in my local supermarket - roughly 10 of the 50 drawings had Minecraft characters in them.
  - carlisle_ 14y ago
    The game format is pretty conducive to "casual" gaming. I'm sure with all the new features getting added it's more and more attractive to these gamers.
  - bayes 14y ago
    Currently (I'm in London UK) Minecraft has a huge folllowing among boys aged (roughly) 8-14. As long as that demographic remains obsessed there'll be a constant new market.
k-mcgrady 14y ago
>> ""Microsoft owns the Xbox. Apple owns the iOS. The charm of the PC is that nobody owns it... " Yes, but Microsoft owns Windows. The certification change doesn't affect the PC it affects Windows users. His final comment is a lot more balanced: >> "Microsoft is free to do whatever they want with their OS. I won't support all of what they do, however" His comment about Microsoft trying to ruin the PC as an open platform is nonsense. Obviously Windows runs on the majority of PC's but no matter what Microsoft does they can't ruin the PC as an open platform. Linux is available. Build Minecraft for Linux and actively promote Linux. Refuse to build the game for any closed platform and make it clear people can only use your game on open platforms. The whole thing seems to be misuse of 'PC' and 'Windows'.
- ps2000 14y ago
  Yeah, the reality is that most game vendors ruined open desktop platforms. There was a time when Windows and PCs were still big and mobile gadgets were only used by business people. During that time the biggest hurdle for many people that wanted to leave Windows was that the cool games just worked on Windows. I think nobody will feel sorry for the game industry loosing their last desktop platform. After all you need a lot of cash to make games experience on the desktop comparable to game experience on a top-notch game console.
- willvarfar 14y ago
  You haven't been following the trusted computing for windows 8 row then? you won't be able to run linux on these machines.
- bootload 14y ago
  "... Build Minecraft for Linux and actively promote Linux. ..." Is this a tech problem? Maybe the MS strategy is to move gaming to the XBox where it has greater control, where greater control >> revenue. Minecraft is written in Java ~ http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Development_Resources http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Development_Resources there are also various ports with other code bases ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minecraft#Ports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minecraft#Ports so it's available on Linux but I would guess Microsoft is the biggest source of revenue. So you're right it won't ruin the PC, just the coffers of the parent company.
SquareWheel 14y ago
This is the most overdone news story in recent months. It was two tweets, and yet entire articles are being written analyzing a small quip. Now how many times do we have to go over the argument? x86, for the moment, is just as open as Windows 7. ARM is not, it's very locked down. Windows 8 as a whole consists of both versions, in that respect it's considered less open. The fear is that we're going to see ARM become the major OS (for various reasons, mostly tablets/phones/mobiles becoming more popular) and at that point there won't be an open Windows. That's the concern. Yes, it's a slippery slope argument, but it looks to be the direction we're headed in. And please, stop with the "then why did he release on iOS/Xbox" argument ad nauseam, it's an ecosystem which was locked down from the beginning, nothing is being "lost". This story has really embittered me, so I apologize if this is brash. But all the personal attacks I see on various websites against Notch are incredibly disheartening.
- rbanffy 14y ago
  My worry is that openness may die with this move, not to ARM per se, but to locked down ARM devices. Ubuntu and Android run just fine on the hardware Microsoft demands their OEMs to cripple (and yes, none of my Android devices is locked down). Microsoft is pushing towards a world they can enjoy without having to compete as much as they do now - they don't want to make software people love: they'd rather live with people having no option.
- cooldeal 14y ago
  The problem is that what Notch is saying is terribly unclear. Is he talking about the desktop game or about Windows RT? The two tweets are pretty ambiguous, and so it may seem to some that Notch is trying to cash in on the publicity with this while happily contributing to the death of the PC by selling the iPad version. Here's an excellent series of articles about the confusion that Notch needs to clear up. http://www.withinwindows.com/2012/09/28/notch-doesnt-hate-windows-8-hes-just-confused/ http://www.withinwindows.com/2012/09/28/notch-doesnt-hate-wi...

44 points by bootload 14y ago

From the article: Mr Persson revealed his views in two tweets. From twitter: Got an email from microsoft, wanting to help "certify" minecraft for win 8. I told them to stop trying to ruin the pc as an open platform. I'd rather have minecraft not run on win 8 at all than to play along. Maybe we can convince a few people not to switch to win 8 that way..

ZoFreX 14y ago
But certification isn't new, and is still optional... I don't understand why developers are up in arms over it? Also, is it intrinsically bad? It's proving that the software you installed is from a particular publisher and hasn't been tampered with, isn't that a good thing?
- k-mcgrady 14y ago
  I think it's a minority of developers that are up in arms against in. As a user and developer I've welcomed it on the Mac. Developers can easily certify their apps and it gives customers confidence. If you choose not to certify your app you don't lose out, your software will still run. It will be pretty much the same on Windows (although I find their policies a bit more restrictive). If you don't want to certify, it doesn't prevent your software from working.
  - morsch 14y ago
    But if you certify and offer a shop for certified apps where the shop owner gets a cut this creates a huge incentive for the owner to do everything in its power to get more apps into the shop.
    - k-mcgrady 14y ago
      There will always be apps people need that don't fit in the store. e.g. 18+ games won't be available but lots of PC users want to play them. If Microsoft made it so only certified apps could be installed they would lose a lot of users to alternative platforms. People are looking at this like it is a slippery slope. It could be but it's highly unlikely as it would hurt consumers and the barriers to switching OS aren't that high for most people.
      - morsch 14y ago
        There's no need to completely prevent non-certified content from being accessed, you just make it a second class citizen, e.g. by making installation more difficult or restricting the access to native interfaces. E.g. you can increasingly fall back to distributing stuff that's incompatible with Apple's morals using HTML5, so customers don't need to switch devices to access some version of it. Barriers to switching are falling as more people are using cross-platform stuff (first and foremost, web content and apps) but at the same time they are increasing as people get a large portfolio of content that is either not available or that they haven't bought for other platforms. E.g. switch from iOS to Android and lose access to game X that's not available on Android, app Y that's available but you only bought an iOS license and, of course, convenient access to your collection of iTunes music and videos. Contrast this to a waning desktop era where most casual users seemingly only used and paid for three pieces of software (office, browser, something else) and had much of their other content in cross-platform containers (CD/DVD, MP3, Xvid, office files).
    - cooldeal 14y ago
      There is no cut for Microsoft for desktop apps while Apple takes a cut for OS X apps sold from the app store. But for desktop apps in the Windows Store, it will be only linked to the dev's website. Downloads and updates are handled by the developer.
- daliusd 14y ago
  Could you name second bigest Android app store? I think there are at least two problems: 1) average user will not download anything what's not in win8 app store; a) There are extra burden to upload app to store and pass QA process (I think the only exception here is Google). Haven't you heard horror stories about clueless QA people? 2) there are extra warnings for apps that are not from win8 app store (like in Mac OS X). E.g. I find it annoying because I use relatively lot of tools that are not from app store. Again average user might prefer safe way over risky one and it is problem for indie (game) developers.

eckyptang 14y ago

I still think he's being a sensationalist. Even the BBC are less biased here. There is no requirement to get it certified and you can just use minecraft how it is now without having to go near an app store. This is all hot air.

Toshio 14y ago
The BBC has always been biased toward microsoft.
- eckyptang 14y ago
  It definitely hasn't. They've been terribly critical over the years. I think the issue is that they are not as biased against them as the rest of the industry who know how to get clicks for Microsoft bashing.
  - Toshio 14y ago
    Have you noticed a pattern in BBC's malware reporting? When it's about windows malware, they deliberately avoid mentioning the name windows, instead calling it "PC malware" or "computer virus". But when it's about Android malware, they make darn sure to call it what it is, Android malware. In that case they don't do the dance of calling it, say, "mobile malware". I don't know about you, but to me this is a blatant form of bias.
    - eckyptang 14y ago
      Hmm like? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12067295 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12067295
  - cormullion 14y ago
    Some think so. http://www.slated.org/bbc_microsoft_bias_summary http://www.slated.org/bbc_microsoft_bias_summary But I think they're biased against everybody. At heart, journalists tend toward cynicism...

Toshio 14y ago

BBC is using their platform to issue counter-attacks to legitimate complaints by independent developers. Nothing new here people, move along.

mtgx 14y ago

The thing is Windows 8 is radically changing a lot of stuff and that won't sit well with most businesses in the PC world. Maybe Windows 8 won't give Valve or Notch a death blow by removing the "desktop mode", but I think it's pretty obvious that Microsoft wants the future of Windows to be "Metro-only", and these guys can see that. So it's not Windows 8 per se that they are mad about. It's the whole direction Windows is taking. If they and others can get Windows 8 to fail, and get Microsoft to revert back to the old style Windows, then they win. If not, and Windows 8 is successful, they lose, because you can bet Windows 9 will be even more locked into Metro and with fewer options or less access for the desktop mode.

freehunter 14y ago
I'm not sure Microsoft is explicitly wanting this change. It's a reaction to the shifting computing environment; the iPad showed that the PC isn't the only platform that people want to use, and that some people only want to use tablet computers. I feel Microsoft would have been more than happy to keep developing Windows the way they always have, but they've seen the writing on the wall. Windows isn't what the users want. Microsoft didn't start the locked down tablet market. They're just the newest player. If you want to assign blame, blame the users.
- rbanffy 14y ago
  Microsoft is the only company demanding the ARM devices other companies make to be locked down. What Apple does to its hardware is their problem, but it's not Microsoft's business to demand hardware manufacturers to deliberately kill competition on software (which would, ultimately, benefit both manufacturers and end-users).
  - cooldeal 14y ago
    No that's plain wrong. Microsoft is demanding that only for Windows RT tablets. The same manufacturer is free to make tablets that run Android or Ubuntu or whatever.
    - 14y ago

citricsquid 14y ago

Not related to the point at hand, but why don't people mention the millions of copies sold on other platforms? More than 7.5 million copies of the title have been sold Minecraft has sold 7.5 Million (+) of the PC version, it has also sold millions of copies of the iOS version, the Android version and the Xbox version which just recently broke 5 (edit: sorry, 4) million sales. Seems strange not to say something like: More than 14 million copies of the game have been sold across all platforms, {relevant figure for relevant platform here}. Although maybe with the article being about the PC version it's assumed readers will understand the figures are for the PC version alone.

ido 14y ago
It's really surprising (to me) that 10k people per day are still buying pc minecraft. I'd think pretty much everyone that was interested in a game like that would have gotten it by now? How can there still be 10k new people per day (over what, 3 years now?) that have just found out about minecraft?
- gavanwoolery 14y ago
  I have found that kids are particularly attracted to it, and a new generation of kids matures every year - most of them have access to funds, so it is often purchased on special occasions (i.e. birthdays). It is kind of the new Legos for kids. They had drawing from kids up on the wall in my local supermarket - roughly 10 of the 50 drawings had Minecraft characters in them.
- carlisle_ 14y ago
  The game format is pretty conducive to "casual" gaming. I'm sure with all the new features getting added it's more and more attractive to these gamers.
- bayes 14y ago
  Currently (I'm in London UK) Minecraft has a huge folllowing among boys aged (roughly) 8-14. As long as that demographic remains obsessed there'll be a constant new market.

k-mcgrady 14y ago

>> ""Microsoft owns the Xbox. Apple owns the iOS. The charm of the PC is that nobody owns it... " Yes, but Microsoft owns Windows. The certification change doesn't affect the PC it affects Windows users. His final comment is a lot more balanced: >> "Microsoft is free to do whatever they want with their OS. I won't support all of what they do, however" His comment about Microsoft trying to ruin the PC as an open platform is nonsense. Obviously Windows runs on the majority of PC's but no matter what Microsoft does they can't ruin the PC as an open platform. Linux is available. Build Minecraft for Linux and actively promote Linux. Refuse to build the game for any closed platform and make it clear people can only use your game on open platforms. The whole thing seems to be misuse of 'PC' and 'Windows'.

ps2000 14y ago
Yeah, the reality is that most game vendors ruined open desktop platforms. There was a time when Windows and PCs were still big and mobile gadgets were only used by business people. During that time the biggest hurdle for many people that wanted to leave Windows was that the cool games just worked on Windows. I think nobody will feel sorry for the game industry loosing their last desktop platform. After all you need a lot of cash to make games experience on the desktop comparable to game experience on a top-notch game console.
willvarfar 14y ago
You haven't been following the trusted computing for windows 8 row then? you won't be able to run linux on these machines.
bootload 14y ago
"... Build Minecraft for Linux and actively promote Linux. ..." Is this a tech problem? Maybe the MS strategy is to move gaming to the XBox where it has greater control, where greater control >> revenue. Minecraft is written in Java ~ http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Development_Resources http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Development_Resources there are also various ports with other code bases ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minecraft#Ports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minecraft#Ports so it's available on Linux but I would guess Microsoft is the biggest source of revenue. So you're right it won't ruin the PC, just the coffers of the parent company.

SquareWheel 14y ago

This is the most overdone news story in recent months. It was two tweets, and yet entire articles are being written analyzing a small quip. Now how many times do we have to go over the argument? x86, for the moment, is just as open as Windows 7. ARM is not, it's very locked down. Windows 8 as a whole consists of both versions, in that respect it's considered less open. The fear is that we're going to see ARM become the major OS (for various reasons, mostly tablets/phones/mobiles becoming more popular) and at that point there won't be an open Windows. That's the concern. Yes, it's a slippery slope argument, but it looks to be the direction we're headed in. And please, stop with the "then why did he release on iOS/Xbox" argument ad nauseam, it's an ecosystem which was locked down from the beginning, nothing is being "lost". This story has really embittered me, so I apologize if this is brash. But all the personal attacks I see on various websites against Notch are incredibly disheartening.

rbanffy 14y ago
My worry is that openness may die with this move, not to ARM per se, but to locked down ARM devices. Ubuntu and Android run just fine on the hardware Microsoft demands their OEMs to cripple (and yes, none of my Android devices is locked down). Microsoft is pushing towards a world they can enjoy without having to compete as much as they do now - they don't want to make software people love: they'd rather live with people having no option.
cooldeal 14y ago
The problem is that what Notch is saying is terribly unclear. Is he talking about the desktop game or about Windows RT? The two tweets are pretty ambiguous, and so it may seem to some that Notch is trying to cash in on the publicity with this while happily contributing to the death of the PC by selling the iPad version. Here's an excellent series of articles about the confusion that Notch needs to clear up. http://www.withinwindows.com/2012/09/28/notch-doesnt-hate-windows-8-hes-just-confused/ http://www.withinwindows.com/2012/09/28/notch-doesnt-hate-wi...