5 ms·

People can't go to concerts despite being just as hardworking or just as big fans and start shooting CEOs on the streets. Some systems need to work and be acce

by mrtksn 1y ago

People can't go to concerts despite being just as hardworking or just as big fans and start shooting CEOs on the streets. Some systems need to work and be accessible to everyone so we can sustain peaceful and healthy society. This is not charity, this is to account for externalities and the miscalculations in the free market. Awful lot of people are underpaid and overpaid as they progress through their lives because the markets are actually not that efficient and prices are not formed under perfect information or instantly. You want your mechanical engineers to be able to afford decent life even if all the market current wants is JavaScript engineers because when the tides shift you may end up needing mechanical engineers to produce physical stuff so you want them around and happy. Also, the price could actually be too low too when its optimized for short term profits. Re-sell 100GBP tickets for 500GBP, filter for money and leave out the actual fans and maybe lose all the events for the next year. If you are going to do a daytime robbery, better not ever need money again from the people you are robbing.

_dain_ 1y ago
if they want to go to the concert they should pay the fair market price for a ticket. and in addition, they should refrain from murdering people, because murder is wrong. the high ticket prices incentivise the creation of new venues and the entrant of new artists into the market. they indicate that the music industry is not supplying concerts in sufficient quantity/quality as the market demands, or perhaps not in the right places or at the right times. prices are a signal; you outlaw them at your peril. this is a case where the monkey-brain fairness intuition is simply flat out 100% wrong. scalper economics has been studied for decades; it is known that banning these trades exacerbates shortages. lot of ppl in this thread who would not pass introductory microeconomics.
- salawat 1y ago
  >the high ticket prices incentivise the creation of new venues and the entrant of new artists into the market. Always amuses me that the wannabe market experts ascribe theory of mind to markets. Personal risk tolerance and ability to execute without starving is what constrains supply of talent, who are not intrinsically born with either the knowledge or capability to begin the market based transaction process. God (or your market) does not magically whip up concerts in response to spreadsheets. People taking risks do.
  - mrtksn 1y ago
    Amazing isn’t it, people don’t want to think about the implementation details at all. Things just happen magically, if the market demands more concerts and less coders then programmers start doing concerts!
    - card_zero 1y ago
      That sounds true, though. Some of the coders can play an instrument, or if that's not important these days they can sing through a filter and dance in spandex. It can be their day job, to support their coding hobby.
      - mrtksn 1y ago
        "Can play instrument" is almost never good enough to sell tickets, just like "is good with computers" isn't good enough to be a professional programmer.
        card_zero 1y ago
        So, by diverse ways, the market can reassign suitable people to performing. For instance the programmer can go into sound engineering to replace a sound engineer who is now fulfilling an ambition to be on stage.
        mrtksn 1y ago
        no it doesn’t happen like that, those who lose marketable value start doing something much less complex like driving taxi. There are numerous examples of such things. market doesn’t reassign anybody to anything because people don’t change overnight or after some age. It is one of the primary reasons why many people from the subway times and I’m not having a good time, like rocket scientists becoming taxi drivers
        card_zero 1y ago
        Can't parse your last sentence, but OK: the programmer drives a taxi, a talented taxi driver gets an opportunity to perform music. Maybe I didn't understand your issue and you're really complaining that the surplus programmers will be miserable, not that new music acts won't emerge.
- YeGoblynQueenne 1y ago
  >> the high ticket prices incentivise the creation of new venues and the entrant of new artists into the market. How does scalping, which transfers money from fans, artists, and the music industry to ticket touts who have nothing to do with music, "incentivise the creation" of anything? Except, I suppose, bot farms and clickfarm sweatshops?
kakacik 1y ago
Not sure about your situation, but the only situation I ever experienced out there were scalpers getting ridiculous amounts of tickets beforehand, sometimes via shady contacts and then reselling them for profit. What about some middle ground - allow sale for and below the purchase price and punish severely any profiteering? The only reason scalpers do it is for money - if the punishment and risk are big enough it solved itself. Where I live, the biggest festival in whole country (Paleo @Switzerland) explicitly bans resale for some time and nobody real is complaining, its fair and tickets are sold within minutes of becoming available. The last point - if some psycho is starting to shoot others because they can't go to some fucking concert then the underlying condition needs to be targeted, not sweeping reality in front of them so they never trip on some obstacle in real life. 'Eat the rich' trope is stuff immature frustrated kids tell to peers, nothing more.
- mrtksn 1y ago
  Sure, the issue isn't ticket resale but profiteering that damages the scene. An alternative could be the tickets be assigned for the individual like plane tickets but be transferable so if someone is transferring tickets all the time you can block them.
- WalterBright 1y ago
  > The only reason scalpers do it is for money The only reason people work and run businesses is for money. Not doing it for money is called a "hobby", "charity" and "volunteering".
  - YeGoblynQueenne 1y ago
    The "only" reason? What happened to "making the world a better place"?
WalterBright 1y ago
> prices are not formed under perfect information There is no requirement for perfect information in order for a free market to function. The term for lack of perfect information is "risk" and is factored in to negotiations and the price.
- card_zero 1y ago
  I wonder what would happen in a world where sellers have instant information about how rich the buyer is, and they all raise the offered price accordingly, for every product.
  - mrtksn 1y ago
    That's already being done at some scale to consumers but the actual monumental shift can happen if it can be done to everybody. People are leaving a lot of money on the table by not gauging the prices for individuals that can pay much much more. If Musk is thirsty and forgot to bring his bottle, it should be possible to sell him a billion dollar bottle of water. Anyone around him can just coordinate and gauge the price to the limit and share the profit. The profits from such a trade will greatly exceed the pay of any PA etc, if the opportunity arises just resign don't give him the water for the optimal deal.
    - card_zero 1y ago
      If executed perfectly, I imagine this removes all incentive to make money, since you can't obtain any more stuff with more money. It wouldn't even be nicer water. Trading is cut off from ability to accomplish anything. This kills the economy.
      - WalterBright 1y ago
        All these theories have been tried one way or another. The only one that works is the free market, because the free market is the only one that relies on people being selfish. Any system that relies on unselfish behavior fails.

by mrtksn 1y ago

_dain_ 1y ago

if they want to go to the concert they should pay the fair market price for a ticket. and in addition, they should refrain from murdering people, because murder is wrong. the high ticket prices incentivise the creation of new venues and the entrant of new artists into the market. they indicate that the music industry is not supplying concerts in sufficient quantity/quality as the market demands, or perhaps not in the right places or at the right times. prices are a signal; you outlaw them at your peril. this is a case where the monkey-brain fairness intuition is simply flat out 100% wrong. scalper economics has been studied for decades; it is known that banning these trades exacerbates shortages. lot of ppl in this thread who would not pass introductory microeconomics.

salawat 1y ago
>the high ticket prices incentivise the creation of new venues and the entrant of new artists into the market. Always amuses me that the wannabe market experts ascribe theory of mind to markets. Personal risk tolerance and ability to execute without starving is what constrains supply of talent, who are not intrinsically born with either the knowledge or capability to begin the market based transaction process. God (or your market) does not magically whip up concerts in response to spreadsheets. People taking risks do.
- mrtksn 1y ago
  Amazing isn’t it, people don’t want to think about the implementation details at all. Things just happen magically, if the market demands more concerts and less coders then programmers start doing concerts!
  - card_zero 1y ago
    That sounds true, though. Some of the coders can play an instrument, or if that's not important these days they can sing through a filter and dance in spandex. It can be their day job, to support their coding hobby.
    - mrtksn 1y ago
      "Can play instrument" is almost never good enough to sell tickets, just like "is good with computers" isn't good enough to be a professional programmer.
      - card_zero 1y ago
        So, by diverse ways, the market can reassign suitable people to performing. For instance the programmer can go into sound engineering to replace a sound engineer who is now fulfilling an ambition to be on stage.
        mrtksn 1y ago
        no it doesn’t happen like that, those who lose marketable value start doing something much less complex like driving taxi. There are numerous examples of such things. market doesn’t reassign anybody to anything because people don’t change overnight or after some age. It is one of the primary reasons why many people from the subway times and I’m not having a good time, like rocket scientists becoming taxi drivers
        card_zero 1y ago
        Can't parse your last sentence, but OK: the programmer drives a taxi, a talented taxi driver gets an opportunity to perform music. Maybe I didn't understand your issue and you're really complaining that the surplus programmers will be miserable, not that new music acts won't emerge.
YeGoblynQueenne 1y ago
>> the high ticket prices incentivise the creation of new venues and the entrant of new artists into the market. How does scalping, which transfers money from fans, artists, and the music industry to ticket touts who have nothing to do with music, "incentivise the creation" of anything? Except, I suppose, bot farms and clickfarm sweatshops?

kakacik 1y ago

Not sure about your situation, but the only situation I ever experienced out there were scalpers getting ridiculous amounts of tickets beforehand, sometimes via shady contacts and then reselling them for profit. What about some middle ground - allow sale for and below the purchase price and punish severely any profiteering? The only reason scalpers do it is for money - if the punishment and risk are big enough it solved itself. Where I live, the biggest festival in whole country (Paleo @Switzerland) explicitly bans resale for some time and nobody real is complaining, its fair and tickets are sold within minutes of becoming available. The last point - if some psycho is starting to shoot others because they can't go to some fucking concert then the underlying condition needs to be targeted, not sweeping reality in front of them so they never trip on some obstacle in real life. 'Eat the rich' trope is stuff immature frustrated kids tell to peers, nothing more.

mrtksn 1y ago
Sure, the issue isn't ticket resale but profiteering that damages the scene. An alternative could be the tickets be assigned for the individual like plane tickets but be transferable so if someone is transferring tickets all the time you can block them.
WalterBright 1y ago
> The only reason scalpers do it is for money The only reason people work and run businesses is for money. Not doing it for money is called a "hobby", "charity" and "volunteering".
- YeGoblynQueenne 1y ago
  The "only" reason? What happened to "making the world a better place"?

WalterBright 1y ago

> prices are not formed under perfect information There is no requirement for perfect information in order for a free market to function. The term for lack of perfect information is "risk" and is factored in to negotiations and the price.

card_zero 1y ago
I wonder what would happen in a world where sellers have instant information about how rich the buyer is, and they all raise the offered price accordingly, for every product.
- mrtksn 1y ago
  That's already being done at some scale to consumers but the actual monumental shift can happen if it can be done to everybody. People are leaving a lot of money on the table by not gauging the prices for individuals that can pay much much more. If Musk is thirsty and forgot to bring his bottle, it should be possible to sell him a billion dollar bottle of water. Anyone around him can just coordinate and gauge the price to the limit and share the profit. The profits from such a trade will greatly exceed the pay of any PA etc, if the opportunity arises just resign don't give him the water for the optimal deal.
  - card_zero 1y ago
    If executed perfectly, I imagine this removes all incentive to make money, since you can't obtain any more stuff with more money. It wouldn't even be nicer water. Trading is cut off from ability to accomplish anything. This kills the economy.
    - WalterBright 1y ago
      All these theories have been tried one way or another. The only one that works is the free market, because the free market is the only one that relies on people being selfish. Any system that relies on unselfish behavior fails.