5 ms·

Please stop duplicating Rails

28 points by factorialboy 14y ago

Am I the only one who isn't excited by {any.new.framework} that provides RoR like capabilities in {your.favorite.programming.language}. If I want to use a MVC framework, there are plenty available including RoR + other alternatives across various platforms. A new framework doesn't really help. At least something like Meteor tries to meet the next generation challenges (real-time apps). I'm not saying Meteor is perfect or horrible, I'm just saying they tried to solve the right challenge. Server side MVC feels like 2005. There are plenty of frameworks across a whole range of platforms. You aren't really solving a problem here.

nestlequ1k 14y ago
Age old debate. Either create something new (that no one understands or wants), or rebuild something existing but better (and has a market). One is a lot more fun (the former). One is a lot more lucrative (the latter). I'd be willing to wager that MeteorJS doesn't find major traction until it starts to adapt to the generation of developers who have previously embraced server side MVC. It's examples and API will eventually start looking a lot more like Rails.
kriro 14y ago
I disagree with the author of that blog post. If you think something should be built, go right ahead. Ignore the naysayers and write what you enjoy writing. Don't listen to people that tell you how you should spend your time. [I'm somewhat puzzled why this post is on the first page of HN in the first place but that's another topic]
- factorialboy 14y ago
  Don't you think it makes more sense to contribute to existing open source projects than rewrite one without offering anything new? DRY? Don't we have way too many MVC frameworks? Time to consolidate imho.
  - mercurial 14y ago
    It's debatable. You can have perfectly valid reasons to develop your own framework: - you want to propose something different compared to existing solutions in the field, where your vision is clearly incompatible with what already exists - the coding standards for an existing, similar solution is not acceptable, and unlikely to change On the other hand, many a "me-too" piece of software crops up simply because it can be easier to reinvent than to contribute (not implying that RailwaysJS is that). But TFA's point is also that server-side-heavy frameworks are a thing of the past, which is a fair argument.
  - stuffihavemade 14y ago
    What looks sexier on your resume though: "Creator of backbone.js" (Not trying to pick on backbone since it's a great project, but you can read the entire source in an hour) or "Contributed to making AR 5% faster for certain queries" I'd much rather see 10 people put their time towards making one project better, then seeing 10 people start 10 divergent projects with dreams of becoming the next DHH, but I recognize that there are other factors at play.
    - factorialboy 14y ago
      Contributor to a well known project > Creator of an obscure, unknown project
      - stuffihavemade 14y ago
        Sure, but a lot of programmers' dream (not mine) is to be the creator of the next big thing and gain accolades from other programmers. That won't happen if you're strictly contributing to other projects.
    - zem 14y ago
      not sure which one you're implying sounds sexier, but if i were reading his resume, the AR contribution would definitely strike me as more significant. compare "wrote a fuse-based filesystem for whatever" versus "got several patches into the ext3 tree"
javajosh 14y ago
I assume the OP is complaining about the RailwayJS article on the HN frontpage. Meh. Personally, wish someone would implement Erlang's OTP in node. That would be useful. http://www.erlang.org/doc/design_principles/users_guide.html http://www.erlang.org/doc/design_principles/users_guide.html
- factorialboy 14y ago
  Isn't Akka inspired by OTP? http://akka.io/ http://akka.io/ edit: /oops Oh you meant in node, hmm.. /sorry
- stuffihavemade 14y ago
  I think it would be easier to take the best stuff in the node ecosystem and port it to Erlang than the other way around.
  - ebiester 14y ago
    How do you bring code sharing between the server and client into Erlang? :) Edit: I should have given a little more value on the post. I left node for Scala because the advertised code sharing wasn't worth having to work around an event architecture that I found hard to debug (as I've mentioned elsewhere) and I too considered Erlang before settling on Scala due to our previous java experience and my co-founder's knowledge of people in the Scala community. But fundamentally, node.js isn't interesting if it's not in Javascript. Actors seem like a better model than futures tacked on to callbacks, and frankly javascript's quirks (like having to use require.js for modularization rather than a feature built into the language!) IMHO don't make for a compelling case. I'd use node.js on someone else's project, but I don't know if I'd pick it for my own.
    - stuffihavemade 14y ago
      I wonder how hard it would be to make JS compile to Erlang like Elixir. I think the big problem would be some kind of actor model in the browser with everything callback based. Other than that, they're both dynamically typed, functional (Erlang obviously more) languages.
prince_hakeem 14y ago
psssst... shhh... hey guys... Railway.js is right next to us on HN right now, they might hear... sssshhhh
stuffihavemade 14y ago
I totally agree. Derby (http://derbyjs.com/ http://derbyjs.com/) and Meteor are the only new frameworks out that excite me. RoR is close to ten years old and has thousands of man hours invested into it. Does anyone think a new project that has some of the same capabilities, but lacks the ecosystem/community is going to gain signifigant traction?
DanWaterworth 14y ago
I think it completely depends on why you are doing it. There's no better way to learn about the internals of frameworks than to create one.
sirfried 14y ago
it's 2012, why don't you stop blogging
jackflintermann 14y ago
This looks like it's getting HN'ed, google cache is here: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:srirangan.net/2012-10-its-2012-stop-duplicating-rails-please http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:srirang...
cicloid 14y ago
NIH syndrome? Unless there is something really revolutionary on the framework, most of them are just reinventing the wheel and sadly not from a new approach. On the upside, if you treat this frameworks as code katas. I could see some value on them.
Afal 14y ago
Guide on how to Hacker News: 1. Look at the current popular articles in Hacker News and choose one. 2. Write short blogpost about it which could easily been a comment (but your opinion is much more important and deserves its own golden soapbox) 3. Post said golden soapbox on Hacker News. 4. Steps 1-3 are repeated by someone else posting a rebuttal to your blogpost.
- Confusion 14y ago
  On the other hand, your complaint is a shining example of comments that add value to HN...
rjzzleep 14y ago
i don't see much substance in this. let's all stop building something new.whatever suits your needs. or hell, maybe whatever helps you learn. linux was just made from a guy who wanted to learn os programming.
- factorialboy 14y ago
  You missed the point. A lot of these frameworks aren't building anything new.
  - dasil003 14y ago
    You could have said the same thing about Linux.
    - factorialboy 14y ago
      Nope, but I can say the same thing about my redundant Linux distros.
      - dasil003 14y ago
        So once something is popular then it is self-justified, but new things that imitate something else are bad. How do you ever cross the chasm with that attitude?
        factorialboy 14y ago
        That's your inference. Just because you make outlandish inferences, doesn't mean I get put on the dock and I have to justify them. :-)
        dasil003 14y ago
        Pot, kettle, black. Linux is derivative, there I said it.
    - 14y ago
robryan 14y ago
I disagree, what if you like rails conventions but aren't a big fan of Ruby? What if you have a large collection of code in one language and would rather something that integrates better with it or you have a development team that have core competencies in a certain language. Sure some will say put down the time now and switch to Ruby, some though would much rather be in another language though with the same type of conventions and ideas that Rails brings.

28 points by factorialboy 14y ago

nestlequ1k 14y ago

Age old debate. Either create something new (that no one understands or wants), or rebuild something existing but better (and has a market). One is a lot more fun (the former). One is a lot more lucrative (the latter). I'd be willing to wager that MeteorJS doesn't find major traction until it starts to adapt to the generation of developers who have previously embraced server side MVC. It's examples and API will eventually start looking a lot more like Rails.

kriro 14y ago

I disagree with the author of that blog post. If you think something should be built, go right ahead. Ignore the naysayers and write what you enjoy writing. Don't listen to people that tell you how you should spend your time. [I'm somewhat puzzled why this post is on the first page of HN in the first place but that's another topic]

factorialboy 14y ago
Don't you think it makes more sense to contribute to existing open source projects than rewrite one without offering anything new? DRY? Don't we have way too many MVC frameworks? Time to consolidate imho.
- mercurial 14y ago
  It's debatable. You can have perfectly valid reasons to develop your own framework: - you want to propose something different compared to existing solutions in the field, where your vision is clearly incompatible with what already exists - the coding standards for an existing, similar solution is not acceptable, and unlikely to change On the other hand, many a "me-too" piece of software crops up simply because it can be easier to reinvent than to contribute (not implying that RailwaysJS is that). But TFA's point is also that server-side-heavy frameworks are a thing of the past, which is a fair argument.
- stuffihavemade 14y ago
  What looks sexier on your resume though: "Creator of backbone.js" (Not trying to pick on backbone since it's a great project, but you can read the entire source in an hour) or "Contributed to making AR 5% faster for certain queries" I'd much rather see 10 people put their time towards making one project better, then seeing 10 people start 10 divergent projects with dreams of becoming the next DHH, but I recognize that there are other factors at play.
  - factorialboy 14y ago
    Contributor to a well known project > Creator of an obscure, unknown project
    - stuffihavemade 14y ago
      Sure, but a lot of programmers' dream (not mine) is to be the creator of the next big thing and gain accolades from other programmers. That won't happen if you're strictly contributing to other projects.
  - zem 14y ago
    not sure which one you're implying sounds sexier, but if i were reading his resume, the AR contribution would definitely strike me as more significant. compare "wrote a fuse-based filesystem for whatever" versus "got several patches into the ext3 tree"

javajosh 14y ago

I assume the OP is complaining about the RailwayJS article on the HN frontpage. Meh. Personally, wish someone would implement Erlang's OTP in node. That would be useful. http://www.erlang.org/doc/design_principles/users_guide.html http://www.erlang.org/doc/design_principles/users_guide.html

factorialboy 14y ago
Isn't Akka inspired by OTP? http://akka.io/ http://akka.io/ edit: /oops Oh you meant in node, hmm.. /sorry
stuffihavemade 14y ago
I think it would be easier to take the best stuff in the node ecosystem and port it to Erlang than the other way around.
- ebiester 14y ago
  How do you bring code sharing between the server and client into Erlang? :) Edit: I should have given a little more value on the post. I left node for Scala because the advertised code sharing wasn't worth having to work around an event architecture that I found hard to debug (as I've mentioned elsewhere) and I too considered Erlang before settling on Scala due to our previous java experience and my co-founder's knowledge of people in the Scala community. But fundamentally, node.js isn't interesting if it's not in Javascript. Actors seem like a better model than futures tacked on to callbacks, and frankly javascript's quirks (like having to use require.js for modularization rather than a feature built into the language!) IMHO don't make for a compelling case. I'd use node.js on someone else's project, but I don't know if I'd pick it for my own.
  - stuffihavemade 14y ago
    I wonder how hard it would be to make JS compile to Erlang like Elixir. I think the big problem would be some kind of actor model in the browser with everything callback based. Other than that, they're both dynamically typed, functional (Erlang obviously more) languages.

prince_hakeem 14y ago

psssst... shhh... hey guys... Railway.js is right next to us on HN right now, they might hear... sssshhhh

stuffihavemade 14y ago

I totally agree. Derby (http://derbyjs.com/ http://derbyjs.com/) and Meteor are the only new frameworks out that excite me. RoR is close to ten years old and has thousands of man hours invested into it. Does anyone think a new project that has some of the same capabilities, but lacks the ecosystem/community is going to gain signifigant traction?

DanWaterworth 14y ago

I think it completely depends on why you are doing it. There's no better way to learn about the internals of frameworks than to create one.

sirfried 14y ago

it's 2012, why don't you stop blogging

jackflintermann 14y ago

This looks like it's getting HN'ed, google cache is here: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:srirangan.net/2012-10-its-2012-stop-duplicating-rails-please http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:srirang...

cicloid 14y ago

NIH syndrome? Unless there is something really revolutionary on the framework, most of them are just reinventing the wheel and sadly not from a new approach. On the upside, if you treat this frameworks as code katas. I could see some value on them.

Afal 14y ago

Guide on how to Hacker News: 1. Look at the current popular articles in Hacker News and choose one. 2. Write short blogpost about it which could easily been a comment (but your opinion is much more important and deserves its own golden soapbox) 3. Post said golden soapbox on Hacker News. 4. Steps 1-3 are repeated by someone else posting a rebuttal to your blogpost.

Confusion 14y ago
On the other hand, your complaint is a shining example of comments that add value to HN...

rjzzleep 14y ago

i don't see much substance in this. let's all stop building something new.whatever suits your needs. or hell, maybe whatever helps you learn. linux was just made from a guy who wanted to learn os programming.

factorialboy 14y ago
You missed the point. A lot of these frameworks aren't building anything new.
- dasil003 14y ago
  You could have said the same thing about Linux.
  - factorialboy 14y ago
    Nope, but I can say the same thing about my redundant Linux distros.
    - dasil003 14y ago
      So once something is popular then it is self-justified, but new things that imitate something else are bad. How do you ever cross the chasm with that attitude?
      - factorialboy 14y ago
        That's your inference. Just because you make outlandish inferences, doesn't mean I get put on the dock and I have to justify them. :-)
        dasil003 14y ago
        Pot, kettle, black. Linux is derivative, there I said it.
  - 14y ago

robryan 14y ago

I disagree, what if you like rails conventions but aren't a big fan of Ruby? What if you have a large collection of code in one language and would rather something that integrates better with it or you have a development team that have core competencies in a certain language. Sure some will say put down the time now and switch to Ruby, some though would much rather be in another language though with the same type of conventions and ideas that Rails brings.