3 ms·

What do you mean median values? Trump 2020 won the most votes of any sitting president ever. Then he won the popular vote in 2024. Honestly given US history (s

by Herring 11mo ago

What do you mean median values? Trump 2020 won the most votes of any sitting president ever. Then he won the popular vote in 2024. Honestly given US history (slavery, individualism etc) I'm surprised democracy has lasted so long here. The Economist rates the US as a "flawed democracy", it has been undergoing erosion for a long time.

skissane 11mo ago
> Democracy is about a kind of equality among people, and yet too many people don't really believe in that. If you like meritocracy, that's not equality. If you like capitalism, well it strongly tends towards economic inequality, which historically breaks down the democratic order. If you like American supremacy over China, male dominance over women, white supremacy over minorities, etc etc power fantasies. The word “democracy” comes from ancient Greece, most famously Athens - the term was coined to refer to Cleisthenes‘ reforms in the 5th century BCE - prior to that point only upper class men could vote, the “democratic” reforms extended voting rights to all male citizens who had completed their military training - so excluding women, slaves, freed slaves, resident foreigners, and men who hadn’t completed military training (which normally started around 18 and went for two years) - so only 10% to 20% of the population could vote, although that was still a lot more than prior to the reforms-before the reforms, power was limited to the top 1% or so of men, who came from the wealthiest families So your idea that democracy requires equality is completely ignoring the actual history of the word.
- Herring 11mo ago
  Athenian democracy ran into two successful coups because of those internal flaws, and ultimately didn't last that long. It's better viewed as a "v0.1-alpha" than a final version I wouldn't quite say "democracy requires equality". It's more accurate to say "inequality is corrosive". The amount of damage done depends on how much inequality and for how long and what countermeasures are taken (eg redistribution of wealth, expansions of rights, safety nets etc).
  - skissane 11mo ago
    Democracy-in the contemporary sense that you were defining it (near-universal adult suffrage)-is only a bit over a century old, in its widespread existence. Maybe too soon to judge what its long-term prospects will be? And I think if we look at history-sometimes excessive inequality is the downfall of a regime, yes; but then regimes also fall for lots of other reasons, and on other occasions inequality can endure seemingly-sustainably for centuries or even millennia.
    - Herring 11mo ago
      If age is your biggest concern, you should go fight vaccines. Most of them are less than 100 years old too. No telling what the long term prospects are on our DNA. Go ahead, ping me when you’re done.
      - skissane 11mo ago
        The two topics have nothing to do with each other. I don’t have any issue with vaccines. And I don’t actually have any problem with democracy per se either - I just think some of the things you have been saying about the topic are overly simplistic.

by Herring 11mo ago

skissane 11mo ago

> Democracy is about a kind of equality among people, and yet too many people don't really believe in that. If you like meritocracy, that's not equality. If you like capitalism, well it strongly tends towards economic inequality, which historically breaks down the democratic order. If you like American supremacy over China, male dominance over women, white supremacy over minorities, etc etc power fantasies. The word “democracy” comes from ancient Greece, most famously Athens - the term was coined to refer to Cleisthenes‘ reforms in the 5th century BCE - prior to that point only upper class men could vote, the “democratic” reforms extended voting rights to all male citizens who had completed their military training - so excluding women, slaves, freed slaves, resident foreigners, and men who hadn’t completed military training (which normally started around 18 and went for two years) - so only 10% to 20% of the population could vote, although that was still a lot more than prior to the reforms-before the reforms, power was limited to the top 1% or so of men, who came from the wealthiest families So your idea that democracy requires equality is completely ignoring the actual history of the word.

Herring 11mo ago
Athenian democracy ran into two successful coups because of those internal flaws, and ultimately didn't last that long. It's better viewed as a "v0.1-alpha" than a final version I wouldn't quite say "democracy requires equality". It's more accurate to say "inequality is corrosive". The amount of damage done depends on how much inequality and for how long and what countermeasures are taken (eg redistribution of wealth, expansions of rights, safety nets etc).
- skissane 11mo ago
  Democracy-in the contemporary sense that you were defining it (near-universal adult suffrage)-is only a bit over a century old, in its widespread existence. Maybe too soon to judge what its long-term prospects will be? And I think if we look at history-sometimes excessive inequality is the downfall of a regime, yes; but then regimes also fall for lots of other reasons, and on other occasions inequality can endure seemingly-sustainably for centuries or even millennia.
  - Herring 11mo ago
    If age is your biggest concern, you should go fight vaccines. Most of them are less than 100 years old too. No telling what the long term prospects are on our DNA. Go ahead, ping me when you’re done.
    - skissane 11mo ago
      The two topics have nothing to do with each other. I don’t have any issue with vaccines. And I don’t actually have any problem with democracy per se either - I just think some of the things you have been saying about the topic are overly simplistic.