5 ms·

The way the german government reacts to this makes it pretty easy for any lone actor to do state level damage.

Cthulhu_ 11mo ago
That's why I don't understand why there isn't a more aggressive response to flying drones illegally near airports. IMO they should just be shot down. Actually some years they were very proudly showing birds of prey that they had trained to do just that. Whatever happened to that? After 9/11 there was a huge worldwide shift in e.g. airplane security due to the threat of terrorism, but now there's drones out there they can fly into planes or that can drop bombs they're doing... what? Mentioning it in the news?
- FinnKuhn 11mo ago
  How do you expect to shoot them down? They are small and very quick and disappear shortly after appearing.
  - jiehong 11mo ago
    Stand-by drone-intercepting drones? Tracking them is a need first and foremost. How about a down-facing radar on top of the Aviation Control Tower?
    - FinnKuhn 11mo ago
      I think the issue is response time. Once a drone has been spotted notifying the correct person and getting the drone started would take a few minutes I assume. Furthermore you can't really deploy a drone at an airport while it is still active, which is the reason they are banned from operating there in the first place.
      - jiehong 11mo ago
        I was about to counter your first part with automatic detection and drone launching, but your second point makes sense.
        FinnKuhn 11mo ago
        From the other comments I believe that tracking to identify the operator and launch site together with automated targetted jamming are the most effective solution. I don't know if such a system exists already and if it is quick enough to react without interferring with airport operations.
    - red-iron-pine 11mo ago
      if the downward facing radar sees them then it's already too late -- that drone gonna hit something or it's dropped its payload. a couple of RPG sized rounds dropped from 10000 ft up could easily close runways and shutdown an airport for hours. hell just being there and being UFO could lead to all sorts of flight re-routing and chaos
      - asplake 11mo ago
        Payload? You don’t need actual explosives to cause disruption, and for a state-sponsored actor to use them would be an act of war. The perfect being the enemy of the good here, provisioning for less hostile cases seems eminently sensible.
  - tokai 11mo ago
    And in many cases its simply not legal to start shooting at unidentified drones in an urban environment.
    - prennert 11mo ago
      This is not an issue for the Government though. They can change the laws. That takes time and due process of course. But thats what the German government is doing [0] [0]: https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/gesetzgebungsverfahren/DE/Downloads/kabinettsfassung/B1/kabinett-bundespolizeigesetz_neu2025.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=3 https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/gesetzgebungsverfahren/DE...
  - infecto 11mo ago
    Jammers work pretty well. I would expect most large airports would have a defense response. They would have the tools setup to one instantly identify and track said drones come within the space and two have the tools like the portable jammers to “shoot” it down. These tools are not that expensive and exist from multiple vendors. I would have expected this to be table stakes at running large busy airports.
    - FinnKuhn 11mo ago
      How quickly can you deploy a portable jammer? The drone might have disappeared until you have done so already. So you definitelly need automated systems for detection and targetting, which will probably take time until they are widely available.
      - infecto 11mo ago
        They make hand helds that can be used without human LOS with something like 3km range. You don’t definitely need automated systems but obviously that would be probably more bullet proof.
        FinnKuhn 11mo ago
        A 3km range seems pretty low looking at the size of e.g. Frankfurt Airport. The bigger issue I assume is probably that even if you react very quickly the drone might be already gone already anyway.
        infecto 11mo ago
        It is but I would hope these entities are trying at least something and those jammers are cheap. In Paris they developed an electronic barrier wall for drones. Yes maybe these are autonomous enough that when the link is cut they continue on their mission but I think something is better than nothing. These tools are widely available.
    - slightwinder 11mo ago
  - Cthulhu_ 11mo ago
    If they're detectable they can be targeted; counter-drones for sure (which are also very fast), and there's automated rifle targeting systems specifically designed to target and shoot down drones (e.g. https://www.smart-shooter.com/ https://www.smart-shooter.com/). I'm confident that a system of automated turrets on and around an airbase could be set up. If shooting a gun near civilians is an issue, these don't even need to shoot bullets. But of course, electronic countermeasures / jamming should be attempted first, so they can be recovered intact and traced.
    - FinnKuhn 11mo ago
      I think the issue is that you can't really use counter-drones or automatic weapon systems at an airport due to the threat they pose to the airports operations (automatic rifle systems at civilian airports, which are the ones targeted, wouldn't fly in Germany). The same is true for jamming, which sounds like a bad idea at an active airport, although targetted jamming will probably work. Not sure how quickly such a system can be deployed however. So that means you need to wait until operations have paused at which point the drone has already disappeared. I fell like tracking the drone to identify the operator with strong zoom cameras mounted on the airport might work though. At least some commercial systems seem to use this approach: https://www.dedrone.com/industry/airports https://www.dedrone.com/industry/airports
  - tim333 11mo ago
    You could just go up in a light aircraft with a shot gun?
- slightwinder 11mo ago
  > That's why I don't understand why there isn't a more aggressive response to flying drones illegally near airports. IMO they should just be shot down. This isn't allowed in most countries, so they usually also have no equipment for this. Some countries seem to have changed the laws recently for this case and building up on defence more openly now. Which also leaves space for speculations if this wasn't maybe also sometimes a false-flag-operation. > Actually some years they were very proudly showing birds of prey that they had trained to do just that. Whatever happened to that? They are trained for small slow commercial drones, those which are around the same size as the bird, or smaller. Military long-range-drones are usually a bit bigger and faster, meaning the bird could probably for simply reason of physic not doing much. This probably is also a main problem here, that most drone-defences in the last years were developed against private actors, not military threats. > but now there's drones out there they can fly into planes or that can drop bombs they're doing... what? Mentioning it in the news? It's never been a real threat so far, so nobody really was working on it seriously. There is an endless amount of theoretical threats, you can't protect everything against all of them, you have to go case by case. But reacting takes time. This is going for just some months(?), and still not even a real threat, as nobody knows anything for real (as far as we know). But many things seem happening in secret, outside the public view.

That's why I don't understand why there isn't a more aggressive response to flying drones illegally near airports. IMO they should just be shot down. Actually some years they were very proudly showing birds of prey that they had trained to do just that. Whatever happened to that? After 9/11 there was a huge worldwide shift in e.g. airplane security due to the threat of terrorism, but now there's drones out there they can fly into planes or that can drop bombs they're doing... what? Mentioning it in the news?

FinnKuhn 11mo ago
How do you expect to shoot them down? They are small and very quick and disappear shortly after appearing.
- jiehong 11mo ago
  Stand-by drone-intercepting drones? Tracking them is a need first and foremost. How about a down-facing radar on top of the Aviation Control Tower?
  - FinnKuhn 11mo ago
    I think the issue is response time. Once a drone has been spotted notifying the correct person and getting the drone started would take a few minutes I assume. Furthermore you can't really deploy a drone at an airport while it is still active, which is the reason they are banned from operating there in the first place.
    - jiehong 11mo ago
      I was about to counter your first part with automatic detection and drone launching, but your second point makes sense.
      - FinnKuhn 11mo ago
        From the other comments I believe that tracking to identify the operator and launch site together with automated targetted jamming are the most effective solution. I don't know if such a system exists already and if it is quick enough to react without interferring with airport operations.
  - red-iron-pine 11mo ago
    if the downward facing radar sees them then it's already too late -- that drone gonna hit something or it's dropped its payload. a couple of RPG sized rounds dropped from 10000 ft up could easily close runways and shutdown an airport for hours. hell just being there and being UFO could lead to all sorts of flight re-routing and chaos
    - asplake 11mo ago
      Payload? You don’t need actual explosives to cause disruption, and for a state-sponsored actor to use them would be an act of war. The perfect being the enemy of the good here, provisioning for less hostile cases seems eminently sensible.
- tokai 11mo ago
  And in many cases its simply not legal to start shooting at unidentified drones in an urban environment.
  - prennert 11mo ago
    This is not an issue for the Government though. They can change the laws. That takes time and due process of course. But thats what the German government is doing [0] [0]: https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/gesetzgebungsverfahren/DE/Downloads/kabinettsfassung/B1/kabinett-bundespolizeigesetz_neu2025.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=3 https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/gesetzgebungsverfahren/DE...
- infecto 11mo ago
  Jammers work pretty well. I would expect most large airports would have a defense response. They would have the tools setup to one instantly identify and track said drones come within the space and two have the tools like the portable jammers to “shoot” it down. These tools are not that expensive and exist from multiple vendors. I would have expected this to be table stakes at running large busy airports.
  - FinnKuhn 11mo ago
    How quickly can you deploy a portable jammer? The drone might have disappeared until you have done so already. So you definitelly need automated systems for detection and targetting, which will probably take time until they are widely available.
    - infecto 11mo ago
      They make hand helds that can be used without human LOS with something like 3km range. You don’t definitely need automated systems but obviously that would be probably more bullet proof.
      - FinnKuhn 11mo ago
        A 3km range seems pretty low looking at the size of e.g. Frankfurt Airport. The bigger issue I assume is probably that even if you react very quickly the drone might be already gone already anyway.
        infecto 11mo ago
        It is but I would hope these entities are trying at least something and those jammers are cheap. In Paris they developed an electronic barrier wall for drones. Yes maybe these are autonomous enough that when the link is cut they continue on their mission but I think something is better than nothing. These tools are widely available.
  - slightwinder 11mo ago
- Cthulhu_ 11mo ago
  If they're detectable they can be targeted; counter-drones for sure (which are also very fast), and there's automated rifle targeting systems specifically designed to target and shoot down drones (e.g. https://www.smart-shooter.com/ https://www.smart-shooter.com/). I'm confident that a system of automated turrets on and around an airbase could be set up. If shooting a gun near civilians is an issue, these don't even need to shoot bullets. But of course, electronic countermeasures / jamming should be attempted first, so they can be recovered intact and traced.
  - FinnKuhn 11mo ago
    I think the issue is that you can't really use counter-drones or automatic weapon systems at an airport due to the threat they pose to the airports operations (automatic rifle systems at civilian airports, which are the ones targeted, wouldn't fly in Germany). The same is true for jamming, which sounds like a bad idea at an active airport, although targetted jamming will probably work. Not sure how quickly such a system can be deployed however. So that means you need to wait until operations have paused at which point the drone has already disappeared. I fell like tracking the drone to identify the operator with strong zoom cameras mounted on the airport might work though. At least some commercial systems seem to use this approach: https://www.dedrone.com/industry/airports https://www.dedrone.com/industry/airports
- tim333 11mo ago
  You could just go up in a light aircraft with a shot gun?
slightwinder 11mo ago
> That's why I don't understand why there isn't a more aggressive response to flying drones illegally near airports. IMO they should just be shot down. This isn't allowed in most countries, so they usually also have no equipment for this. Some countries seem to have changed the laws recently for this case and building up on defence more openly now. Which also leaves space for speculations if this wasn't maybe also sometimes a false-flag-operation. > Actually some years they were very proudly showing birds of prey that they had trained to do just that. Whatever happened to that? They are trained for small slow commercial drones, those which are around the same size as the bird, or smaller. Military long-range-drones are usually a bit bigger and faster, meaning the bird could probably for simply reason of physic not doing much. This probably is also a main problem here, that most drone-defences in the last years were developed against private actors, not military threats. > but now there's drones out there they can fly into planes or that can drop bombs they're doing... what? Mentioning it in the news? It's never been a real threat so far, so nobody really was working on it seriously. There is an endless amount of theoretical threats, you can't protect everything against all of them, you have to go case by case. But reacting takes time. This is going for just some months(?), and still not even a real threat, as nobody knows anything for real (as far as we know). But many things seem happening in secret, outside the public view.