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Modern society is falling apart over the cost of getting to net zero. I don't think we have the funds to put lakes on artificial life support in the foreseeable

by RGamma 11mo ago

Modern society is falling apart over the cost of getting to net zero. I don't think we have the funds to put lakes on artificial life support in the foreseeable future.

theklub 11mo ago
Actually it’s already done in some places. https://www.easthamptonct.gov/sites/g/files/vyhlif7556/f/uploads/three_phased_approach_to_lake_pocotopaug_health.pdf https://www.easthamptonct.gov/sites/g/files/vyhlif7556/f/upl...
potato3732842 11mo ago
Is it the cost of net zero? Or is it the cost of everything else pretending to be relevant to net zero? Of the interests pushing for net zero, the bulk of them are only doing it insofar as it can be done in a way that basically guarantees them incomes and all of these earmarks are what's driving the non-starter cost while simultaneously souring people on the whole premise. You'd think that people who allege to think on environmental time scales wouldn't need to be told that a movement that looks like branded rent seeking and legalized corruption when viewed through the perspective of anyone who isn't rolling in money isn't gonna last long enough to do its job.
FrustratedMonky 11mo ago
"over the cost of getting to net zero" Really? Where? Sure looks like we've completely given up. Where are these costs? Who is spending any money on Net-Zero.
- lazide 11mo ago
  Germany and their out of control energy costs (while still only being at best 1/5 of the way there if you count things like thermal heat), are a good example. California has a dramatically easier climate, and is similarly struggling - without even taking into account goods shipping/transportation, thermal heat in the less nice climate zones, etc. California might have a chance of getting to actual net zero without completely breaking the bank. But it’s not obvious it will. Germany is an order of magnitude harder.
  - FrustratedMonky 11mo ago
    The US has flipped. Forget Net-Zero. It's Net-Positive, how can we get more CO2. Like the movie The Arrival (1996) How can we burn more coal, more gas.
    - lazide 11mo ago
      Yup, it’s like when someone ‘tries to diet’, can’t handle it anymore, and then goes on a crazy binge. I figure we’ve got at least a year or two before we start puking all over the place. Maybe less though! Fun times, eh?
  - RGamma 11mo ago
    Renewable electricity in Germany is already at over 50% per year and climbing steadily, but heating, mobility, land/resource/artificial fertilizer use, pollution and circular economy are still lagging (esp. accounting for the fact we're externalizing some of those by cross-border trade). I guess we're trying much harder than most, but it's expensive, as you said, and politicians have become very careful to push things further. That said, I do think it's totally feasible in theory, it's just there's a lot of powerful bad actors out there throwing wrenches in the works.
    - lazide 11mo ago
      The challenge is with the remainder, which is actually a much bigger problem. Thermal heating for example, even using heat pumps, will require more than 5x the existing electrical grids peak energy capacity - just on its own. I’ve done the math several times, it’s staggering. And it will do it during typically minimal insolation times. Germany has made good progress, don’t get me wrong, but it highlights just how hard of a problem this really is.
      - RGamma 11mo ago
        W.r.t. heating did you also consider the effects of increasing local production as well as transferability and variability of load (e.g. requiring larger heat pumps and other "steuerbare Verbrauchseinrichtungen" to be "adjustable", which Germany does)

by RGamma 11mo ago

Modern society is falling apart over the cost of getting to net zero. I don't think we have the funds to put lakes on artificial life support in the foreseeable future.

theklub 11mo ago

Actually it’s already done in some places. https://www.easthamptonct.gov/sites/g/files/vyhlif7556/f/uploads/three_phased_approach_to_lake_pocotopaug_health.pdf https://www.easthamptonct.gov/sites/g/files/vyhlif7556/f/upl...

potato3732842 11mo ago

Is it the cost of net zero? Or is it the cost of everything else pretending to be relevant to net zero? Of the interests pushing for net zero, the bulk of them are only doing it insofar as it can be done in a way that basically guarantees them incomes and all of these earmarks are what's driving the non-starter cost while simultaneously souring people on the whole premise. You'd think that people who allege to think on environmental time scales wouldn't need to be told that a movement that looks like branded rent seeking and legalized corruption when viewed through the perspective of anyone who isn't rolling in money isn't gonna last long enough to do its job.

FrustratedMonky 11mo ago

"over the cost of getting to net zero" Really? Where? Sure looks like we've completely given up. Where are these costs? Who is spending any money on Net-Zero.

lazide 11mo ago
Germany and their out of control energy costs (while still only being at best 1/5 of the way there if you count things like thermal heat), are a good example. California has a dramatically easier climate, and is similarly struggling - without even taking into account goods shipping/transportation, thermal heat in the less nice climate zones, etc. California might have a chance of getting to actual net zero without completely breaking the bank. But it’s not obvious it will. Germany is an order of magnitude harder.
- FrustratedMonky 11mo ago
  The US has flipped. Forget Net-Zero. It's Net-Positive, how can we get more CO2. Like the movie The Arrival (1996) How can we burn more coal, more gas.
  - lazide 11mo ago
    Yup, it’s like when someone ‘tries to diet’, can’t handle it anymore, and then goes on a crazy binge. I figure we’ve got at least a year or two before we start puking all over the place. Maybe less though! Fun times, eh?
- RGamma 11mo ago
  Renewable electricity in Germany is already at over 50% per year and climbing steadily, but heating, mobility, land/resource/artificial fertilizer use, pollution and circular economy are still lagging (esp. accounting for the fact we're externalizing some of those by cross-border trade). I guess we're trying much harder than most, but it's expensive, as you said, and politicians have become very careful to push things further. That said, I do think it's totally feasible in theory, it's just there's a lot of powerful bad actors out there throwing wrenches in the works.
  - lazide 11mo ago
    The challenge is with the remainder, which is actually a much bigger problem. Thermal heating for example, even using heat pumps, will require more than 5x the existing electrical grids peak energy capacity - just on its own. I’ve done the math several times, it’s staggering. And it will do it during typically minimal insolation times. Germany has made good progress, don’t get me wrong, but it highlights just how hard of a problem this really is.
    - RGamma 11mo ago
      W.r.t. heating did you also consider the effects of increasing local production as well as transferability and variability of load (e.g. requiring larger heat pumps and other "steuerbare Verbrauchseinrichtungen" to be "adjustable", which Germany does)