4 ms·

Sure but in less than 6 years your 12 year old is a complete adult. You must give them the gift of Adult discipline in that short period of time. Without that

Sure but in less than 6 years your 12 year old is a complete adult. You must give them the gift of Adult discipline in that short period of time. Without that you will get the result in your final sentence.

TeaDrunk 11mo ago
I would argue that 18 is not a complete adult just one defined legally as an adult by our legal system. I would argue that the definition of complete adult is relatively arbitrary and mostly cultural. “A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” ― Robert A. Heinlein
- graemep 11mo ago
  I agree that an 18 year old is not fully developed, but they have to be able to make sensible decisions by the time they are legally an adult, because you have no means of stopping them any more. At the very least enough sense to know when they need to ask for advice. Heinlein is right in principle but its a big ask. can do quite a bit of that list, but I have never butchered a hog or conned a ship or planned an invasion. I am pretty sure I could pitch manure but finding out whether you can die gallantly is likely to be the last thing you find out.
  - petermcneeley 11mo ago
    I knew as soon as I read this that you are a parent.
    - graemep 11mo ago
      I am, and one of my daughters is 22 and the other 17 so I have seen a lot of the process of growing up.
- danaris 11mo ago
  Specialization is for societies. No human has the capability to learn to do all the things necessary to sustain a modern technological lifestyle solo, with the limited time we have on this planet. At best, someone who's wealthy enough not to have to do all the boring, time-consuming parts might be able to learn a decent subset. Heinlein's purported philosophy fits very well with the all-too-American "rugged individualist" perspective that every person should be completely self-sufficient, but it doesn't actually hold up if you study psychology, sociology, or history. It is, perhaps, also relevant that this quote is from the book "Time Enough for Love", whose main character, Lazarus Long, has been alive for many centuries.
jv22222 11mo ago
> in less than 6 years your 12 year old is a complete adult They really aren't. Brains are not close to being fully developed until the age of 25. The gift of "adult discipline" is quite a flawed idea. Depending on how far you take it, that's exactly the kind of thing that can create trauma, depression, low self esteem and perhaps worst can affect creativity self expression and just wanting to play. Play, undiscipline, rebelliousness, is exactly where the Apple Macintosh came from and so many other amazing technologies and ideas came from in the world. I'd say exactly the opposite, we need to find ways of removing discipline and conformity and extending play and self-expression into adult life for as long as possible as it is the foundation of so much goodness. That said, if your idea of "Adult discipline" is chock-o-block full of play and self-expression then I'm all ears.
- danaris 11mo ago
  > Brains are not close to being fully developed until the age of 25. Brains continue developing throughout our lifetimes. The study that appeared to show them stopping development at 25 did not have any participants older than 25. It would be convenient to have a specific age we can point to where we can say "now you're fully adult!" based on biological factors, but I'm afraid we'll just have to use our flawed human judgement and draw imperfect lines. That said, it is fairly well-understood when various of the structures and functions in the brain responsible for certain basic capacities (like discipline) first develop, on average.
  - dragonwriter 11mo ago
    > The study that appeared to show them stopping development at 25 did not have any participants older than 25. Its not one study, its a multitude of studies of a different functions, and the popular conception about “brain development” not being full until the mid 20s is specifically about where multiple studies show the average peak in executive function occurs (with a slow decline after the peak, which obviously wouldn't be seen if it was only based on studies of younger people.) Other functions peak anywhere from a little earlier, to much later, to, in a few cases, continuing to develop without a discernible age-related peak.
Retric 11mo ago
The drinking age is 21 in the US 18 is not quite full adulthood, so 12 is still quite young. Even just 1 year is a big deal for kids, 6 years is a huge jump look at 0 vs 6 vs 12 vs 18 and these are very different people. You see my last sentence when you don’t change how our parents were raised. A 12 year old isn’t ready to handle the full responsibility of a smartphone or grocery shopping etc, but that doesn’t mean you can’t introduce aspects of a smartphone.

TeaDrunk 11mo ago

I would argue that 18 is not a complete adult just one defined legally as an adult by our legal system. I would argue that the definition of complete adult is relatively arbitrary and mostly cultural. “A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” ― Robert A. Heinlein

graemep 11mo ago
I agree that an 18 year old is not fully developed, but they have to be able to make sensible decisions by the time they are legally an adult, because you have no means of stopping them any more. At the very least enough sense to know when they need to ask for advice. Heinlein is right in principle but its a big ask. can do quite a bit of that list, but I have never butchered a hog or conned a ship or planned an invasion. I am pretty sure I could pitch manure but finding out whether you can die gallantly is likely to be the last thing you find out.
- petermcneeley 11mo ago
  I knew as soon as I read this that you are a parent.
  - graemep 11mo ago
    I am, and one of my daughters is 22 and the other 17 so I have seen a lot of the process of growing up.
danaris 11mo ago
Specialization is for societies. No human has the capability to learn to do all the things necessary to sustain a modern technological lifestyle solo, with the limited time we have on this planet. At best, someone who's wealthy enough not to have to do all the boring, time-consuming parts might be able to learn a decent subset. Heinlein's purported philosophy fits very well with the all-too-American "rugged individualist" perspective that every person should be completely self-sufficient, but it doesn't actually hold up if you study psychology, sociology, or history. It is, perhaps, also relevant that this quote is from the book "Time Enough for Love", whose main character, Lazarus Long, has been alive for many centuries.

jv22222 11mo ago

> in less than 6 years your 12 year old is a complete adult They really aren't. Brains are not close to being fully developed until the age of 25. The gift of "adult discipline" is quite a flawed idea. Depending on how far you take it, that's exactly the kind of thing that can create trauma, depression, low self esteem and perhaps worst can affect creativity self expression and just wanting to play. Play, undiscipline, rebelliousness, is exactly where the Apple Macintosh came from and so many other amazing technologies and ideas came from in the world. I'd say exactly the opposite, we need to find ways of removing discipline and conformity and extending play and self-expression into adult life for as long as possible as it is the foundation of so much goodness. That said, if your idea of "Adult discipline" is chock-o-block full of play and self-expression then I'm all ears.

danaris 11mo ago
> Brains are not close to being fully developed until the age of 25. Brains continue developing throughout our lifetimes. The study that appeared to show them stopping development at 25 did not have any participants older than 25. It would be convenient to have a specific age we can point to where we can say "now you're fully adult!" based on biological factors, but I'm afraid we'll just have to use our flawed human judgement and draw imperfect lines. That said, it is fairly well-understood when various of the structures and functions in the brain responsible for certain basic capacities (like discipline) first develop, on average.
- dragonwriter 11mo ago
  > The study that appeared to show them stopping development at 25 did not have any participants older than 25. Its not one study, its a multitude of studies of a different functions, and the popular conception about “brain development” not being full until the mid 20s is specifically about where multiple studies show the average peak in executive function occurs (with a slow decline after the peak, which obviously wouldn't be seen if it was only based on studies of younger people.) Other functions peak anywhere from a little earlier, to much later, to, in a few cases, continuing to develop without a discernible age-related peak.

Retric 11mo ago

The drinking age is 21 in the US 18 is not quite full adulthood, so 12 is still quite young. Even just 1 year is a big deal for kids, 6 years is a huge jump look at 0 vs 6 vs 12 vs 18 and these are very different people. You see my last sentence when you don’t change how our parents were raised. A 12 year old isn’t ready to handle the full responsibility of a smartphone or grocery shopping etc, but that doesn’t mean you can’t introduce aspects of a smartphone.