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The tough thing is probably trying to make it Type 2 fun, where hard work leads to rewards rather than Type 1 fun that’s basically just entertainment. Ultimatel

The tough thing is probably trying to make it Type 2 fun, where hard work leads to rewards rather than Type 1 fun that’s basically just entertainment. Ultimately, learning something new is always kind of painful, and learning to push through that pain is in itself a key lesson you have to learn for adult life.

card_zero 11mo ago
No. Fun is learning. You've just internalized an ugly perspective.
- mindslight 11mo ago
  So are you saying that binge watching a TV series is just as educational as learning a new programming language?
  - graemep 11mo ago
    No, but learning a new programming language can be more fun than watching a TV series. This forum has plenty of past comments from people who have learned a programming language for fun when they could have spent that time watching a TV series.
    - card_zero 11mo ago
      Exactly! Also, depending on the person, in fact yes.
    - mindslight 11mo ago
      "Learning is fun" for the right type of person is a far cry from an assertion of "fun is learning" that implies whenever someone is having fun, they're learning. The point is that getting to a place where learning a new programming language is fun requires developing a lot of skill and willpower, which can easily be short circuited by things that are fun but not learning.
      - card_zero 11mo ago
        Willpower - or not. Some of us learned languages unhesitatingly, with delight. So what? Do the other people have to take part too? (Actually I remember hating C when I got to the part of K&R about pointers. I threw the book across the room. I hated it for about 12 hours. Then I woke up the next morning and was all like "pointers are brilliant", it was weird.) I guess you can guide people into a subject, assuring them the whole way through that the subject is probably going to get enjoyable, and in the meantime making the experience enjoyable through social effects and entertainment - while allowing them freedom to back out if in fact you're boring them. But that doesn't demand their willpower. It hinges on their interest.
        mindslight 11mo ago
        > Do the other people have to take part too? Yes? It's great that learning things was fun for you. I'm there with you myself. I had amazing lucid dreams the night after I learned Ocaml... But this entire thread is about teaching children, many of whom need guidance, support, and unfortunately sometimes control to mitigate their attraction to easy-but-unhealthy activities. Not everyone is going to be a programmer. But even if we're talking about structuring learning such that it's compelling on its own, then we're kind of assuming everyone is going to have a calling and also find it relatively young. That feels pretty naive.
        card_zero 11mo ago
        They don't have to learn the things you assume they have to learn. To push people into academic crap that they hate is: 1. Pompous, 2. Counterproductive.
        mindslight 11mo ago
        I likely agree with 80% of where you're coming from, but simply making unsubstantiated blanket assertions is not a coherent argument.
        11mo ago
- graemep 11mo ago
  I agree, Learning is fun. It becomes something you need to push through because a bad educational system destroyed the fun. Its sometimes necessary to learn some thing that are not fun, buts is exceptional, especially for children.
  - card_zero 11mo ago
    I don't think that's even real learning. But that's a slightly offensive thing to say to diligent swots, I guess. Well done swots, have a gold star anyway.
    - graemep 11mo ago
      I think it can be real learning, but it often is not. You made me laugh anyway.
- clickety_clack 11mo ago
  First of all, you are saying I think learning should not be fun at all, when I am actually saying that learning is type 2 fun, and people need to learn how to do that to be happy, fulfilled adults. Second, in refuting me, it seems you are stating that learning should be Type 1 fun, which I totally disagree with. You are severely limiting your potential if you only do things that are entertaining. And not just in an accidental way: you are also setting yourself up for a life in which you follow the things that are made to be entertaining for you, by advertisers or whoever else thinks they can gain by leading you along. I enjoy learning new things, I’ve learned new languages, musical instruments, and I’ve switched careers a couple of times which has led to all kinds of new things I had to learn to do. The fact is, that the real fun happens after mastery, and after a brief ”this is cool” bump where you bang a drum for a couple of minutes on the beach or whatever, there is a long period of practice where you pretty much have to put in the work before you can get to that fun flow state of mastery.
  - card_zero 11mo ago
    Well, I just ignored the whole thing about type 1 and type 2 fun. I guess type 2 is something about being patient. Thing is, though, if it's actually fun, it's not painful, and if it is painful, it's not necessary as part of learning, and isn't helping. I suppose we often have to do painful things to maintain stability, or advance, and indirectly therefore they're necessary as part of a strategy to continue learning. Like, I don't know, work a terrible job to pay the rent. But that's indirect, not intrinsic to learning, so those things don't count.

card_zero 11mo ago

No. Fun is learning. You've just internalized an ugly perspective.

mindslight 11mo ago
So are you saying that binge watching a TV series is just as educational as learning a new programming language?
- graemep 11mo ago
  No, but learning a new programming language can be more fun than watching a TV series. This forum has plenty of past comments from people who have learned a programming language for fun when they could have spent that time watching a TV series.
  - card_zero 11mo ago
    Exactly! Also, depending on the person, in fact yes.
  - mindslight 11mo ago
    "Learning is fun" for the right type of person is a far cry from an assertion of "fun is learning" that implies whenever someone is having fun, they're learning. The point is that getting to a place where learning a new programming language is fun requires developing a lot of skill and willpower, which can easily be short circuited by things that are fun but not learning.
    - card_zero 11mo ago
      Willpower - or not. Some of us learned languages unhesitatingly, with delight. So what? Do the other people have to take part too? (Actually I remember hating C when I got to the part of K&R about pointers. I threw the book across the room. I hated it for about 12 hours. Then I woke up the next morning and was all like "pointers are brilliant", it was weird.) I guess you can guide people into a subject, assuring them the whole way through that the subject is probably going to get enjoyable, and in the meantime making the experience enjoyable through social effects and entertainment - while allowing them freedom to back out if in fact you're boring them. But that doesn't demand their willpower. It hinges on their interest.
      - mindslight 11mo ago
        > Do the other people have to take part too? Yes? It's great that learning things was fun for you. I'm there with you myself. I had amazing lucid dreams the night after I learned Ocaml... But this entire thread is about teaching children, many of whom need guidance, support, and unfortunately sometimes control to mitigate their attraction to easy-but-unhealthy activities. Not everyone is going to be a programmer. But even if we're talking about structuring learning such that it's compelling on its own, then we're kind of assuming everyone is going to have a calling and also find it relatively young. That feels pretty naive.
        card_zero 11mo ago
        They don't have to learn the things you assume they have to learn. To push people into academic crap that they hate is: 1. Pompous, 2. Counterproductive.
        mindslight 11mo ago
        I likely agree with 80% of where you're coming from, but simply making unsubstantiated blanket assertions is not a coherent argument.
        11mo ago
graemep 11mo ago
I agree, Learning is fun. It becomes something you need to push through because a bad educational system destroyed the fun. Its sometimes necessary to learn some thing that are not fun, buts is exceptional, especially for children.
- card_zero 11mo ago
  I don't think that's even real learning. But that's a slightly offensive thing to say to diligent swots, I guess. Well done swots, have a gold star anyway.
  - graemep 11mo ago
    I think it can be real learning, but it often is not. You made me laugh anyway.
clickety_clack 11mo ago
First of all, you are saying I think learning should not be fun at all, when I am actually saying that learning is type 2 fun, and people need to learn how to do that to be happy, fulfilled adults. Second, in refuting me, it seems you are stating that learning should be Type 1 fun, which I totally disagree with. You are severely limiting your potential if you only do things that are entertaining. And not just in an accidental way: you are also setting yourself up for a life in which you follow the things that are made to be entertaining for you, by advertisers or whoever else thinks they can gain by leading you along. I enjoy learning new things, I’ve learned new languages, musical instruments, and I’ve switched careers a couple of times which has led to all kinds of new things I had to learn to do. The fact is, that the real fun happens after mastery, and after a brief ”this is cool” bump where you bang a drum for a couple of minutes on the beach or whatever, there is a long period of practice where you pretty much have to put in the work before you can get to that fun flow state of mastery.
- card_zero 11mo ago
  Well, I just ignored the whole thing about type 1 and type 2 fun. I guess type 2 is something about being patient. Thing is, though, if it's actually fun, it's not painful, and if it is painful, it's not necessary as part of learning, and isn't helping. I suppose we often have to do painful things to maintain stability, or advance, and indirectly therefore they're necessary as part of a strategy to continue learning. Like, I don't know, work a terrible job to pay the rent. But that's indirect, not intrinsic to learning, so those things don't count.