4 ms·

Maybe work should be put into make the curriculum more engaging so that it's less drudgery and boring work and more rewarding. A practical example of this from

by mjevans 11mo ago

Maybe work should be put into make the curriculum more engaging so that it's less drudgery and boring work and more rewarding. A practical example of this from fitness is turning exercise into a sport.

Razengan 11mo ago
Early school should be like a game onboarding tutorial for this world: "You are a human." "You are on this planet." "This is what this world is like." "This is what humans have made so far." "This is what's out there." and then let people be free from 10-20 to figure out their own goals instead of just funneling them into the endless capitalist churn.
- analog31 11mo ago
  "You are a human." "Here's the refrigerator." "Here's a cell phone."
  - Razengan 11mo ago
    Of course, actually yes: Expose new humans to the latest technology right away, WHILE it's still awe-inspiring to them, before it become as routine as breathing, and explain how it's made, how we got there, and how life was before then. That'd be a much better way of teaching multiple subjects that are boring and irrelevant on their own. You're not supposed to have phones or computers in class but you're supposed to somehow be interested in the math and other sciences that make those things possible? You go home and your life there is much more entertaining than in school, but you have no idea how what you're being taught in school ties into the things at home.
    - analog31 11mo ago
      I don't think a way of teaching has been found, that doesn't require a willingness to be at least moderately bored, and that isn't to some extent disconnected from everyday life. Even using computers in class, which I endorse, involves acceptance that many of the uses will seem boring. Making everything as entertaining as commercial media is too much to ask.
      - Razengan 11mo ago
        One just needs an exciting goal to reach, something to look forward to. For me for example, a lot of the work in developing the game is mundane boilerplate and looking up solutions to solved problems, but I can bear through it because I really want to play the game I'm trying to make. Education should optimize for finding such "goals" for each individual person, instead of just finding a "use" for each person to be put to, as another poster put it.
- LoFiSamurai 11mo ago
  Do you have kids? You’re going straight to planets huh.
  - Razengan 11mo ago
    No but I think I can still think like one and I can remember what would have gotten my interest back then before dropping out because video games were so much more interesting :') Before I realized this world is just as interesting, but school does everything to make you bored of it before you can explore it.
    - wakawaka28 11mo ago
      Even in the most interesting fields, 95% of everything is boring work. That even goes for the individual tasks. Found a good physics problem? Well, you might be excited about it but 95% of solving it is going to be thinking about assumptions and doing rote mathematical manipulations. You are likely to get sick of it before even getting to any answer, much less the right one. There are also many important/useful fields that are not very interesting. In a sense, the most important thing school does is to build up within students a tolerance of boredom and an appreciation of the fact that most work is potentially boring.
      - Razengan 11mo ago
        > Even in the most interesting fields, 95% of everything is boring work. You can plow through boring work if the end goal is exciting. For example, when developing a game that you yourself want to play :)
        wakawaka28 11mo ago
        Most people are not like that. Even playing video games will be boring, if it's your JOB. Much more so if you need to do hundreds of hours of cerebral work to get to the point where you can have a little fun lol...
- onionisafruit 11mo ago
  “This is what the world is like” is a full education in itself.
  - Razengan 11mo ago
    Again, it doesn't have to be an info dump, like how education is now and has forever been, just reciting rote explanations to questions nobody (at that age) asks. Just enough to get you hooked into the "game" you've just spawned into.
    - nemomarx 11mo ago
      does this ever work in tutorials in games? People skip the explanations and then complain later that they're confused or didn't know x and y feature existed. We already have people say they wish they'd learned how to do their taxes or balance budgets - imagine what 12 year olds might think is uninteresting that comes up later, right?
      - Razengan 11mo ago
        In the last 20 years or so, how much of the knowledge that we know and use in life is from what we learned in school (and remember) versus looking it up on the internet or asking someone only during the moment we need that knowledge?
- jayd16 11mo ago
  Grammar and reading comprehension are important and can be enjoyable or at least unlock the enjoyment of understanding literature ...but I seriously doubt a 10 year old is going to think to take a class in it on their own.
- wakawaka28 11mo ago
  >and then let people be free from 10-20 to figure out their own goals instead of just funneling them into the endless capitalist churn. This "capitalist churn" is how we get things done for society. While some exploration makes sense, the vast majority of people are not gifted in the arts or endowed with genius. They must be prepared for life with basic skills that can be put to good use. Even under communist "utopian" regimes, children are forced to do basically the same stuff they do under capitalist regimes, because people and their needs are the same under both.
  - Razengan 11mo ago
    > They must be prepared for life with basic skills that can be put to good use. There are 8 billion people. Not every single one can be ""put to good use"" We have enough technology now to let people slow down and fucking chill a bit.
    - wakawaka28 11mo ago
      The point is, you have to try to encourage people to be better, and if you're lucky they will at least turn out ok. The default human condition is to be lazy and unambitious. Nobody is actually hurt by a bit of discipline in their formative years.
- giantg2 11mo ago
  "You are a human." "You are on this planet." "This is what this world is like." "This is what humans have made so far." "This is what's out there." That's basically what school is. Many of these topics can't be explained in reasonable detail and complexity until after 10 years old.
analog31 11mo ago
Just have overworked teachers with minimal tech savvy compete for engagement with trillion dollar companies that employ armies of psychologists and programmers, and who have popular momentum on their side. Have them do this without turning into the industry they're competing with. I'm a musician. I could get more people to come to my concerts if I just come up with material that's more engaging than Taylor Swift.
- aleph_minus_one 11mo ago
  > I'm a musician. I could get more people to come to my concerts if I just come up with material that's more engaging than Taylor Swift. Even without knowing anything about your music, I'm 98 % certain that I would prefer to go to your concert than to a Taylor Swift concert. :-)
  - antonvs 11mo ago
    The key part that wasn't mentioned is "...more engaging to a mass audience."
clickety_clack 11mo ago
The tough thing is probably trying to make it Type 2 fun, where hard work leads to rewards rather than Type 1 fun that’s basically just entertainment. Ultimately, learning something new is always kind of painful, and learning to push through that pain is in itself a key lesson you have to learn for adult life.
- card_zero 11mo ago
  No. Fun is learning. You've just internalized an ugly perspective.
  - mindslight 11mo ago
    So are you saying that binge watching a TV series is just as educational as learning a new programming language?
    - graemep 11mo ago
      No, but learning a new programming language can be more fun than watching a TV series. This forum has plenty of past comments from people who have learned a programming language for fun when they could have spent that time watching a TV series.
      - card_zero 11mo ago
        Exactly! Also, depending on the person, in fact yes.
      - mindslight 11mo ago
        "Learning is fun" for the right type of person is a far cry from an assertion of "fun is learning" that implies whenever someone is having fun, they're learning. The point is that getting to a place where learning a new programming language is fun requires developing a lot of skill and willpower, which can easily be short circuited by things that are fun but not learning.
card_zero 11mo ago
Less drudgery and boring work? How about not drudgery and not boring. To accomplish this the thing has to be optional, and it has to be freely chosen. No amount of window dressing on a thing you're forced to do makes it truly fun. But that's not possible, allowing kids the choice to possibly not be educated, and so we get endless "make learning fun!" crap on top of compulsory drudgery.
- jacknews 11mo ago
  Life is not all fun. You need to learn how to buckle up and just get it done.
  - card_zero 11mo ago
    "Life" seems to be a codeword for other people being obstructive. It's sadly true, you end up learning to be pragmatic and defeated.
    - giantg2 11mo ago
      'Life" seems to be a codeword for other people being obstructive.' If one chooses the modern life, then they're stuck within the constraints of society. You could be nearly self sufficient, but that would be even more difficult.
  - hereme888 11mo ago
    But school is 13 years of mostly boring, stressful and irrelevant learning. What adult on earth would willingly take up that sort of work? None except the small percent of academically-oriented personalities. Teacher: "today we're going to learn about the three types of rocks, and the quadratic equation." Student: "what for? I've never seen an adult discuss or use that in real life." Teacher: "you might need it some day, and its part of the curriculum."
    - gf000 11mo ago
      Well, (some?) humans have inherent curiosity about how to world operates, see all the litany of questions small children have. Education should attempt to somehow tap into that as a core motivation, though that will surely not be enough or good for everyone. But learning is work, and there is no way around that.
giantg2 11mo ago
They already have tons interesting and gamified stuff in schools. Part of learning should also include how to tackle subjects you find boring. Discipline and perseverance are useful life skills that I think are increasingly disappearing.

by mjevans 11mo ago

Razengan 11mo ago

Early school should be like a game onboarding tutorial for this world: "You are a human." "You are on this planet." "This is what this world is like." "This is what humans have made so far." "This is what's out there." and then let people be free from 10-20 to figure out their own goals instead of just funneling them into the endless capitalist churn.

analog31 11mo ago
"You are a human." "Here's the refrigerator." "Here's a cell phone."
- Razengan 11mo ago
  Of course, actually yes: Expose new humans to the latest technology right away, WHILE it's still awe-inspiring to them, before it become as routine as breathing, and explain how it's made, how we got there, and how life was before then. That'd be a much better way of teaching multiple subjects that are boring and irrelevant on their own. You're not supposed to have phones or computers in class but you're supposed to somehow be interested in the math and other sciences that make those things possible? You go home and your life there is much more entertaining than in school, but you have no idea how what you're being taught in school ties into the things at home.
  - analog31 11mo ago
    I don't think a way of teaching has been found, that doesn't require a willingness to be at least moderately bored, and that isn't to some extent disconnected from everyday life. Even using computers in class, which I endorse, involves acceptance that many of the uses will seem boring. Making everything as entertaining as commercial media is too much to ask.
    - Razengan 11mo ago
      One just needs an exciting goal to reach, something to look forward to. For me for example, a lot of the work in developing the game is mundane boilerplate and looking up solutions to solved problems, but I can bear through it because I really want to play the game I'm trying to make. Education should optimize for finding such "goals" for each individual person, instead of just finding a "use" for each person to be put to, as another poster put it.
LoFiSamurai 11mo ago
Do you have kids? You’re going straight to planets huh.
- Razengan 11mo ago
  No but I think I can still think like one and I can remember what would have gotten my interest back then before dropping out because video games were so much more interesting :') Before I realized this world is just as interesting, but school does everything to make you bored of it before you can explore it.
  - wakawaka28 11mo ago
    Even in the most interesting fields, 95% of everything is boring work. That even goes for the individual tasks. Found a good physics problem? Well, you might be excited about it but 95% of solving it is going to be thinking about assumptions and doing rote mathematical manipulations. You are likely to get sick of it before even getting to any answer, much less the right one. There are also many important/useful fields that are not very interesting. In a sense, the most important thing school does is to build up within students a tolerance of boredom and an appreciation of the fact that most work is potentially boring.
    - Razengan 11mo ago
      > Even in the most interesting fields, 95% of everything is boring work. You can plow through boring work if the end goal is exciting. For example, when developing a game that you yourself want to play :)
      - wakawaka28 11mo ago
        Most people are not like that. Even playing video games will be boring, if it's your JOB. Much more so if you need to do hundreds of hours of cerebral work to get to the point where you can have a little fun lol...
onionisafruit 11mo ago
“This is what the world is like” is a full education in itself.
- Razengan 11mo ago
  Again, it doesn't have to be an info dump, like how education is now and has forever been, just reciting rote explanations to questions nobody (at that age) asks. Just enough to get you hooked into the "game" you've just spawned into.
  - nemomarx 11mo ago
    does this ever work in tutorials in games? People skip the explanations and then complain later that they're confused or didn't know x and y feature existed. We already have people say they wish they'd learned how to do their taxes or balance budgets - imagine what 12 year olds might think is uninteresting that comes up later, right?
    - Razengan 11mo ago
      In the last 20 years or so, how much of the knowledge that we know and use in life is from what we learned in school (and remember) versus looking it up on the internet or asking someone only during the moment we need that knowledge?
jayd16 11mo ago
Grammar and reading comprehension are important and can be enjoyable or at least unlock the enjoyment of understanding literature ...but I seriously doubt a 10 year old is going to think to take a class in it on their own.
wakawaka28 11mo ago
>and then let people be free from 10-20 to figure out their own goals instead of just funneling them into the endless capitalist churn. This "capitalist churn" is how we get things done for society. While some exploration makes sense, the vast majority of people are not gifted in the arts or endowed with genius. They must be prepared for life with basic skills that can be put to good use. Even under communist "utopian" regimes, children are forced to do basically the same stuff they do under capitalist regimes, because people and their needs are the same under both.
- Razengan 11mo ago
  > They must be prepared for life with basic skills that can be put to good use. There are 8 billion people. Not every single one can be ""put to good use"" We have enough technology now to let people slow down and fucking chill a bit.
  - wakawaka28 11mo ago
    The point is, you have to try to encourage people to be better, and if you're lucky they will at least turn out ok. The default human condition is to be lazy and unambitious. Nobody is actually hurt by a bit of discipline in their formative years.
giantg2 11mo ago
"You are a human." "You are on this planet." "This is what this world is like." "This is what humans have made so far." "This is what's out there." That's basically what school is. Many of these topics can't be explained in reasonable detail and complexity until after 10 years old.

analog31 11mo ago

Just have overworked teachers with minimal tech savvy compete for engagement with trillion dollar companies that employ armies of psychologists and programmers, and who have popular momentum on their side. Have them do this without turning into the industry they're competing with. I'm a musician. I could get more people to come to my concerts if I just come up with material that's more engaging than Taylor Swift.

aleph_minus_one 11mo ago
> I'm a musician. I could get more people to come to my concerts if I just come up with material that's more engaging than Taylor Swift. Even without knowing anything about your music, I'm 98 % certain that I would prefer to go to your concert than to a Taylor Swift concert. :-)
- antonvs 11mo ago
  The key part that wasn't mentioned is "...more engaging to a mass audience."

clickety_clack 11mo ago

The tough thing is probably trying to make it Type 2 fun, where hard work leads to rewards rather than Type 1 fun that’s basically just entertainment. Ultimately, learning something new is always kind of painful, and learning to push through that pain is in itself a key lesson you have to learn for adult life.

card_zero 11mo ago
No. Fun is learning. You've just internalized an ugly perspective.
- mindslight 11mo ago
  So are you saying that binge watching a TV series is just as educational as learning a new programming language?
  - graemep 11mo ago
    No, but learning a new programming language can be more fun than watching a TV series. This forum has plenty of past comments from people who have learned a programming language for fun when they could have spent that time watching a TV series.
    - card_zero 11mo ago
      Exactly! Also, depending on the person, in fact yes.
    - mindslight 11mo ago
      "Learning is fun" for the right type of person is a far cry from an assertion of "fun is learning" that implies whenever someone is having fun, they're learning. The point is that getting to a place where learning a new programming language is fun requires developing a lot of skill and willpower, which can easily be short circuited by things that are fun but not learning.

card_zero 11mo ago

Less drudgery and boring work? How about not drudgery and not boring. To accomplish this the thing has to be optional, and it has to be freely chosen. No amount of window dressing on a thing you're forced to do makes it truly fun. But that's not possible, allowing kids the choice to possibly not be educated, and so we get endless "make learning fun!" crap on top of compulsory drudgery.

jacknews 11mo ago
Life is not all fun. You need to learn how to buckle up and just get it done.
- card_zero 11mo ago
  "Life" seems to be a codeword for other people being obstructive. It's sadly true, you end up learning to be pragmatic and defeated.
  - giantg2 11mo ago
    'Life" seems to be a codeword for other people being obstructive.' If one chooses the modern life, then they're stuck within the constraints of society. You could be nearly self sufficient, but that would be even more difficult.
- hereme888 11mo ago
  But school is 13 years of mostly boring, stressful and irrelevant learning. What adult on earth would willingly take up that sort of work? None except the small percent of academically-oriented personalities. Teacher: "today we're going to learn about the three types of rocks, and the quadratic equation." Student: "what for? I've never seen an adult discuss or use that in real life." Teacher: "you might need it some day, and its part of the curriculum."
  - gf000 11mo ago
    Well, (some?) humans have inherent curiosity about how to world operates, see all the litany of questions small children have. Education should attempt to somehow tap into that as a core motivation, though that will surely not be enough or good for everyone. But learning is work, and there is no way around that.

giantg2 11mo ago

They already have tons interesting and gamified stuff in schools. Part of learning should also include how to tackle subjects you find boring. Discipline and perseverance are useful life skills that I think are increasingly disappearing.