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When I first saw the Arduino I didn't see the point - after all there were boards that cost less, did more, and the Arduino IDE seemed very barebones compared t

When I first saw the Arduino I didn't see the point - after all there were boards that cost less, did more, and the Arduino IDE seemed very barebones compared to what you could do with GCC and a custom toolchain. Then eventually I saw how much community support, ready made hardware emerged around it, to the point that after a while, not going the Arduino route was a decision you needed to justify heavily. Same thing with the Raspberry Pi - there are commercial devices now running or more or less stock Pi hardware with some accomodations - the power of the community is just too large - you can either spend an insane amount of time getting things working on your custom SBC, or get something well-supported for free. I hope that the same thing will happen with the Steam Machine - the pull of the community will result in a well-supported 'default' device where people (and Valve) will put in the effort to create a comparable desktop experience to the commercial OSes. Valve already helped immensely with Wayland - it's crazy to think that the project was stared cca. 2008, and today there's still arguments to be made it's not mature yet - by investing the necessary energy to make sure games run well, the drivers are optimized, and there's a high-quality end-user library (wlroots) for writing compositors has been the push that Wayland needed.

tormeh 1y ago
> a comparable desktop experience to the commercial OSes Isn't it alteady comparable? My Linux desktop has almost the same game compatibility that Windows has, and none of the advertising and jank. Gone are the legendary days of xorg.conf. Linux has less problems than Windows now. Support from professional software vendors (Dassault, Autodesk, et al) and Nvidia could be better, admittedly, but these restrictions aren't very relevant to me. As for Mac OS it's fine, I guess, but I strongly dislike the settings program, and it's not like you can install an nvidia card there.
- zavec 1y ago
  > Support from professional software vendors (Dassault, Autodesk, et al) and Nvidia could be better, admittedly, but these restrictions aren't very relevant to me. I think that's maybe what GP was getting at. If you know how to debug stuff and such then Linux is perfectly serviceable today. With something like this, between Valve presumably publishing some docs and a big community for a single platform it should become a lot easier for people who are less familiar to search "I got xyz error on my steam box what do I do" and get help they can use. For mass adoption I think that's a big step. And then from there they can start venturing further out, if they want.
  - tormeh 1y ago
    What do these things have to do with each other? You can't debug your way out of bad Nvidia support or nonexistent Dassault support. You have to just not use these products in combination with Linux, or just accept the issues that come with them.
    - yetihehe 1y ago
      > You can't debug your way out of bad Nvidia support or nonexistent Dassault support. With bad Nvidia support very often you can, there exist a lot of workarounds found by people. With Dassault support you are right, because a lot less people use their products than Nvidia products and those people typically don't share on public forums. People using Steam Machine will be sharing problems and solutions on public forums and there will be more of them than people using Dassault products.
- ajvs 1y ago
  And this is due to Valve's big investments in Proton, Steam Deck and the new Steam hardware to get game compatibility working from both the Linux/Wine side as well as making game developers aim for compatibility.
  - gf000 1y ago
    One part of it. The other (and arguably bigger in some way) part are drivers (Nvidia, amd, Intel) that improved a great deal over the years.
    - giancarlostoro 1y ago
      Kind of helps that most AI work happens on Linux too. ;)
  - MegaDeKay 1y ago
    They've been supporting KDE as well for years now.
- yetihehe 1y ago
  > Support from professional software vendors [..] and Nvidia could be better, admittedly, but these restrictions aren't very relevant to me. Quality of support from Nvidia on linux is the reason that I went with AMD for my linux work+gaming rig. That's why probably Valve chosen AMD too. As amount of linux gamers increases, maybe Nvidia will see the light too. For me, linux+AMD+Steam stack "just works".
  - philistine 1y ago
    Nvidia has always had a hard time maintaining good relationships with partners (see the whole Apple fiasco in the early 2010s), their Linux support is anemic and now they're gorged up to the gills with stupid AI money. They probably don't even bother picking up the phone when Valve calls. Only AMD will sell you an integrated CPU/GPU system with the power envelope needed for modern games.
- lanfeust6 1y ago
  Yes - but now what would you rather plug into a big screen TV? Supposing you opt for an OS like Bazzite/pop that is TV friendly then you are turning a desktop into a multimedia console foremost. People like stuff that works out of the box. Conversely You can also turn the Steam Machine into a desktop by installing another OS
- graemep 1y ago
  People will buy a Steam Machine who would not buy a Linux desktop. The perception and the marketing are very different. it is small and looks like games console. This is something people will buy instead of a Playstation or a gaming PC. A lot of people buying it will not know what Linux is. If you look at this page: https://store.steampowered.com/sale/steammachine https://store.steampowered.com/sale/steammachine It does not use the word "Linux" at all and only mentions Arch and KDE right at the bottom of the specs. > Linux has less problems than Windows now. I agree, and it has been my experience for the last few years. I am not a gamer nor do I use any of the software you mention so its even better for me. I am very glad not to be using Windows 11 from what I hear of it.
  - stirfish 1y ago
    >People will buy a Steam Machine who would not buy a Linux desktop. I have a Linux desktop and a mental block around playing games on a computer. The computer is supposed to be where I work or write code, etc. If I have leisure time, I "should" do something away from the computer. Getting a steam deck let me shake some of that. I'd be very tempted by a box that is a Linux computer, but for fun use only.
gary_0 1y ago
Another nice thing about the Pi is that you know for sure there won't be any major Linux issues; the official distro is tested for that hardware and that hardware alone. I'm assuming the same will apply for Linux on the Steam Machine, whereas most of the time when I install Linux on a random PC, I have to debug some issue with audio/networking/video (which is less common these days, but I guess I'm unlucky). Speaking of which, I recently bought a Ryzen Framework laptop assuming the recommended Linux distro would run smoothly, but unfortunately I hit a few glitches, including a really annoying amdgpu bug that keeps making the screen flicker. I might have to mess with kernel boot parameters. Disappointing. Since the Steam Machine is meant as a consumer product, hopefully it will run Linux solidly, and that's a big plus for me. I wouldn't touch Windows with a 10 foot pole these days.
- sekh60 1y ago
  I have a Framework Ryzen AI 300 series. Had the screen flickering after a kernel update several weeks ago. Fix was to add "amdgpu.dcdebugmask=0x2" to the grub kernel cmdline. Running Fedora 43, fully up to date as of yesterday. I sadly can't find the official forum thread about it. Hope it helps though.
deng 1y ago
The Arduino was 30$ when it came out. The Raspberry was 35$. I'd be astonished if they manage to get the Steam Machine down to 800$ (bundled with a controller). Knowing how Valve loves their margins, it's probably closer to 1000$ or even more. This is not something you spontaneously buy to play around with.
- chiffaa 1y ago
  In one of the interviews that came out when the Steam Machine embargo ended, someone from Valve said that, unlike with Steam Deck, they can't afford to sell at a loss because the form factor and the OS of the Machine make it possible to buy it just for general compute, which would be devastating with negative margins. So, unfortunately, I guess it will be 800-1000$ in the end
  - rpdillon 1y ago
    The cost of freedom.
  - yummypaint 1y ago
    That is still cheaper than the index when it came out, and it sounds like a general improvement in all areas. Flagship vr for less than the cost of the latest smartphone seems pretty reasonable given how low adoption is.
    - SahAssar 1y ago
      They are talking about the Machine (computer/console), not the Frame (VR-glasses).
- tapoxi 1y ago
  Moore's Law is Dead (chip analyst YouTuber) believes a $300 bill of materials and $600, maybe even $450 for the lower SKU. The CPU and GPU in this are last generation, and he believes Valve got a bulk discount on unsold RDNA3 mobile GPUs. They did something similar with the Steam Deck riding off a Magic Leap custom design. People predicted that would be pricey too but launched with (and still has) a $399 model.
testdelacc1 1y ago
This is already happening with the Steam Deck! Some of the best AAA games released in the last few years play excellently on the Steam Deck. This is mainly because it provides an excellent baseline that developers can test and optimise for. When least 1.5% or more of your customers have this exact configuration, it makes sense to optimise for them. The 2023 game of the year was Baldurs Gate III. During the development they specifically tested on the Deck and it played pretty well. But they optimised the heck out of it, finally shipping a native Deck build earlier this year. That’s why the Deck punches well above its weight - all the optimisation that devs do for it. And that’s why gamers continue to buy it, years after it released. Devs aren’t lazy, or averse to optimisation. They just need a large enough target to optimise for. If the Deck/GabeCube is a large enough proportion of the player base, they’ll put in the effort.
wat10000 1y ago
Experts tend to greatly underestimate the importance of friction. By the time you’ve finished saying “gcc and a custom toolchain” you’ve lost most of your potential audience. If you’re a professional or even an experienced hobbyist, it’s no big deal. But if the idea of programming embedded systems is new to you, it’s a lot of effort. And it’s not clear how much effort it will be, or if you’ll even be capable of it. It’s not fun to be knee deep in a complicated install and have no idea if you’ll ever be able to get it working. Lots of people will find something else to occupy their time rather than attempt it. That then leads to community and better tools, and maybe it becomes a good choice even for experts. And even if it never does, it provides a great stepping stone, since trying and failing to set up the more complicated tools is a lot more tolerable if you can fall back to the simple IDE you’ve been using.
devwastaken 1y ago
SteamOS is locked down. it is not a community driven project. You cannot update if you modify the rootfs. Valve created a true console, it is not a PC.
- leshenka 1y ago
  Sorry that’s absolutely not the case. They’ve created “locked down” experience so that is serviceable and harder to break but you’re absolutely free to install arch, ubuntu, whatever and put Steam on top of it. You can install Windows even. You don’t have to choose “all or nothing”. You are not being locked in an ecosystem like you do with the consoles Steam Machine aims to compete with.
  - devwastaken 11mo ago
    It is locked down in exactly the same way you can go through a bunch of steps to unlock any other device. SteamOS is locked by default. you must run a series of scripts found on various forums to unlock it. Windows is broken on steamdeck. the only OS that works properly is SteamOS for obvious reasons.
- retrochameleon 1y ago
  Immutable =/= locked down
  - devwastaken 11mo ago
    Its the same thing to the user. go ahead and ask someone to install some arch packages.
    - retrochameleon 11mo ago
      If the user can't figure it out (RTFM) and handle it, they probably shouldn't. Lest they break their own system and then blame valve either way.

tormeh 1y ago

> a comparable desktop experience to the commercial OSes Isn't it alteady comparable? My Linux desktop has almost the same game compatibility that Windows has, and none of the advertising and jank. Gone are the legendary days of xorg.conf. Linux has less problems than Windows now. Support from professional software vendors (Dassault, Autodesk, et al) and Nvidia could be better, admittedly, but these restrictions aren't very relevant to me. As for Mac OS it's fine, I guess, but I strongly dislike the settings program, and it's not like you can install an nvidia card there.

zavec 1y ago
> Support from professional software vendors (Dassault, Autodesk, et al) and Nvidia could be better, admittedly, but these restrictions aren't very relevant to me. I think that's maybe what GP was getting at. If you know how to debug stuff and such then Linux is perfectly serviceable today. With something like this, between Valve presumably publishing some docs and a big community for a single platform it should become a lot easier for people who are less familiar to search "I got xyz error on my steam box what do I do" and get help they can use. For mass adoption I think that's a big step. And then from there they can start venturing further out, if they want.
- tormeh 1y ago
  What do these things have to do with each other? You can't debug your way out of bad Nvidia support or nonexistent Dassault support. You have to just not use these products in combination with Linux, or just accept the issues that come with them.
  - yetihehe 1y ago
    > You can't debug your way out of bad Nvidia support or nonexistent Dassault support. With bad Nvidia support very often you can, there exist a lot of workarounds found by people. With Dassault support you are right, because a lot less people use their products than Nvidia products and those people typically don't share on public forums. People using Steam Machine will be sharing problems and solutions on public forums and there will be more of them than people using Dassault products.
ajvs 1y ago
And this is due to Valve's big investments in Proton, Steam Deck and the new Steam hardware to get game compatibility working from both the Linux/Wine side as well as making game developers aim for compatibility.
- gf000 1y ago
  One part of it. The other (and arguably bigger in some way) part are drivers (Nvidia, amd, Intel) that improved a great deal over the years.
  - giancarlostoro 1y ago
    Kind of helps that most AI work happens on Linux too. ;)
- MegaDeKay 1y ago
  They've been supporting KDE as well for years now.
yetihehe 1y ago
> Support from professional software vendors [..] and Nvidia could be better, admittedly, but these restrictions aren't very relevant to me. Quality of support from Nvidia on linux is the reason that I went with AMD for my linux work+gaming rig. That's why probably Valve chosen AMD too. As amount of linux gamers increases, maybe Nvidia will see the light too. For me, linux+AMD+Steam stack "just works".
- philistine 1y ago
  Nvidia has always had a hard time maintaining good relationships with partners (see the whole Apple fiasco in the early 2010s), their Linux support is anemic and now they're gorged up to the gills with stupid AI money. They probably don't even bother picking up the phone when Valve calls. Only AMD will sell you an integrated CPU/GPU system with the power envelope needed for modern games.
lanfeust6 1y ago
Yes - but now what would you rather plug into a big screen TV? Supposing you opt for an OS like Bazzite/pop that is TV friendly then you are turning a desktop into a multimedia console foremost. People like stuff that works out of the box. Conversely You can also turn the Steam Machine into a desktop by installing another OS
graemep 1y ago
People will buy a Steam Machine who would not buy a Linux desktop. The perception and the marketing are very different. it is small and looks like games console. This is something people will buy instead of a Playstation or a gaming PC. A lot of people buying it will not know what Linux is. If you look at this page: https://store.steampowered.com/sale/steammachine https://store.steampowered.com/sale/steammachine It does not use the word "Linux" at all and only mentions Arch and KDE right at the bottom of the specs. > Linux has less problems than Windows now. I agree, and it has been my experience for the last few years. I am not a gamer nor do I use any of the software you mention so its even better for me. I am very glad not to be using Windows 11 from what I hear of it.
- stirfish 1y ago
  >People will buy a Steam Machine who would not buy a Linux desktop. I have a Linux desktop and a mental block around playing games on a computer. The computer is supposed to be where I work or write code, etc. If I have leisure time, I "should" do something away from the computer. Getting a steam deck let me shake some of that. I'd be very tempted by a box that is a Linux computer, but for fun use only.

gary_0 1y ago

Another nice thing about the Pi is that you know for sure there won't be any major Linux issues; the official distro is tested for that hardware and that hardware alone. I'm assuming the same will apply for Linux on the Steam Machine, whereas most of the time when I install Linux on a random PC, I have to debug some issue with audio/networking/video (which is less common these days, but I guess I'm unlucky). Speaking of which, I recently bought a Ryzen Framework laptop assuming the recommended Linux distro would run smoothly, but unfortunately I hit a few glitches, including a really annoying amdgpu bug that keeps making the screen flicker. I might have to mess with kernel boot parameters. Disappointing. Since the Steam Machine is meant as a consumer product, hopefully it will run Linux solidly, and that's a big plus for me. I wouldn't touch Windows with a 10 foot pole these days.

sekh60 1y ago
I have a Framework Ryzen AI 300 series. Had the screen flickering after a kernel update several weeks ago. Fix was to add "amdgpu.dcdebugmask=0x2" to the grub kernel cmdline. Running Fedora 43, fully up to date as of yesterday. I sadly can't find the official forum thread about it. Hope it helps though.

deng 1y ago

The Arduino was 30$ when it came out. The Raspberry was 35$. I'd be astonished if they manage to get the Steam Machine down to 800$ (bundled with a controller). Knowing how Valve loves their margins, it's probably closer to 1000$ or even more. This is not something you spontaneously buy to play around with.

chiffaa 1y ago
In one of the interviews that came out when the Steam Machine embargo ended, someone from Valve said that, unlike with Steam Deck, they can't afford to sell at a loss because the form factor and the OS of the Machine make it possible to buy it just for general compute, which would be devastating with negative margins. So, unfortunately, I guess it will be 800-1000$ in the end
- rpdillon 1y ago
  The cost of freedom.
- yummypaint 1y ago
  That is still cheaper than the index when it came out, and it sounds like a general improvement in all areas. Flagship vr for less than the cost of the latest smartphone seems pretty reasonable given how low adoption is.
  - SahAssar 1y ago
    They are talking about the Machine (computer/console), not the Frame (VR-glasses).
tapoxi 1y ago
Moore's Law is Dead (chip analyst YouTuber) believes a $300 bill of materials and $600, maybe even $450 for the lower SKU. The CPU and GPU in this are last generation, and he believes Valve got a bulk discount on unsold RDNA3 mobile GPUs. They did something similar with the Steam Deck riding off a Magic Leap custom design. People predicted that would be pricey too but launched with (and still has) a $399 model.

testdelacc1 1y ago

This is already happening with the Steam Deck! Some of the best AAA games released in the last few years play excellently on the Steam Deck. This is mainly because it provides an excellent baseline that developers can test and optimise for. When least 1.5% or more of your customers have this exact configuration, it makes sense to optimise for them. The 2023 game of the year was Baldurs Gate III. During the development they specifically tested on the Deck and it played pretty well. But they optimised the heck out of it, finally shipping a native Deck build earlier this year. That’s why the Deck punches well above its weight - all the optimisation that devs do for it. And that’s why gamers continue to buy it, years after it released. Devs aren’t lazy, or averse to optimisation. They just need a large enough target to optimise for. If the Deck/GabeCube is a large enough proportion of the player base, they’ll put in the effort.

wat10000 1y ago

Experts tend to greatly underestimate the importance of friction. By the time you’ve finished saying “gcc and a custom toolchain” you’ve lost most of your potential audience. If you’re a professional or even an experienced hobbyist, it’s no big deal. But if the idea of programming embedded systems is new to you, it’s a lot of effort. And it’s not clear how much effort it will be, or if you’ll even be capable of it. It’s not fun to be knee deep in a complicated install and have no idea if you’ll ever be able to get it working. Lots of people will find something else to occupy their time rather than attempt it. That then leads to community and better tools, and maybe it becomes a good choice even for experts. And even if it never does, it provides a great stepping stone, since trying and failing to set up the more complicated tools is a lot more tolerable if you can fall back to the simple IDE you’ve been using.

devwastaken 1y ago

SteamOS is locked down. it is not a community driven project. You cannot update if you modify the rootfs. Valve created a true console, it is not a PC.

leshenka 1y ago
Sorry that’s absolutely not the case. They’ve created “locked down” experience so that is serviceable and harder to break but you’re absolutely free to install arch, ubuntu, whatever and put Steam on top of it. You can install Windows even. You don’t have to choose “all or nothing”. You are not being locked in an ecosystem like you do with the consoles Steam Machine aims to compete with.
- devwastaken 11mo ago
  It is locked down in exactly the same way you can go through a bunch of steps to unlock any other device. SteamOS is locked by default. you must run a series of scripts found on various forums to unlock it. Windows is broken on steamdeck. the only OS that works properly is SteamOS for obvious reasons.
retrochameleon 1y ago
Immutable =/= locked down
- devwastaken 11mo ago
  Its the same thing to the user. go ahead and ask someone to install some arch packages.
  - retrochameleon 11mo ago
    If the user can't figure it out (RTFM) and handle it, they probably shouldn't. Lest they break their own system and then blame valve either way.