14 ms·

> the rich just see fines as a cost of business They will only do the business so long as it is profitable. If the fines are high enough that they internalize

> the rich just see fines as a cost of business They will only do the business so long as it is profitable. If the fines are high enough that they internalize the negative consequences of the business's behavior, you should get a good outcome. For example, there should be a very large fine if a waymo hits and kills someone. It should not be an infinitely large fine or result in jail time for waymo executives. To operate self-driving cars, they should have to put enough money in escrow to prove they can pay the fine. You don't want an infinite punishment and you don't want no punishment. You want to align the incentives. Fines are probably the best way to do that for rational actors

bigfudge 11mo ago
But people and corporates are demonstrably not rational actors. There are thousands of studies documenting our inability to properly track and think about risks. Plus, as this story shows, if the fines are large enough they just phone up their friends to have the fines quashed. Naming culpable individuals inside corporations and regularly holding them accountable is the only way to make this stop.
Draiken 11mo ago
> Fines are probably the best way to do that for rational actors How can you say that after not only this instance but also all the other instances that showed how ineffective they are? That also has the huge assumption that companies are rational actors. They're not. They're merely profit machines that'll do anything to achieve their goal. It simply does not work.
mschuster91 11mo ago
> For example, there should be a very large fine if a waymo hits and kills someone. It should not be an infinitely large fine or result in jail time for waymo executives. The way this is done is by certification and testing. Mercedes Benz for example? They got their driving assistant certified under SAE Level 3 [1]. Do that and you'll get a pass because you followed the legal guidelines - but if you don't and use an uncertified system, it means jail time. Autonomous cars aren't some random webshop or bananaware (ripens at the customer's), autonomous cars are two ton heavy ballistic weapons capable of mass murder (as a bunch of terror attacks show) and should be treated as such - test before going on the road, not afterwards after you used the general public as guinea pigs. [1] https://www.heise.de/news/Autonomes-Fahren-Mercedes-wird-Level-3-autonomes-Fahren-bis-95-km-h-gestattet-10207389.html https://www.heise.de/news/Autonomes-Fahren-Mercedes-wird-Lev...

bigfudge 11mo ago

But people and corporates are demonstrably not rational actors. There are thousands of studies documenting our inability to properly track and think about risks. Plus, as this story shows, if the fines are large enough they just phone up their friends to have the fines quashed. Naming culpable individuals inside corporations and regularly holding them accountable is the only way to make this stop.

Draiken 11mo ago

> Fines are probably the best way to do that for rational actors How can you say that after not only this instance but also all the other instances that showed how ineffective they are? That also has the huge assumption that companies are rational actors. They're not. They're merely profit machines that'll do anything to achieve their goal. It simply does not work.

mschuster91 11mo ago

> For example, there should be a very large fine if a waymo hits and kills someone. It should not be an infinitely large fine or result in jail time for waymo executives. The way this is done is by certification and testing. Mercedes Benz for example? They got their driving assistant certified under SAE Level 3 [1]. Do that and you'll get a pass because you followed the legal guidelines - but if you don't and use an uncertified system, it means jail time. Autonomous cars aren't some random webshop or bananaware (ripens at the customer's), autonomous cars are two ton heavy ballistic weapons capable of mass murder (as a bunch of terror attacks show) and should be treated as such - test before going on the road, not afterwards after you used the general public as guinea pigs. [1] https://www.heise.de/news/Autonomes-Fahren-Mercedes-wird-Level-3-autonomes-Fahren-bis-95-km-h-gestattet-10207389.html https://www.heise.de/news/Autonomes-Fahren-Mercedes-wird-Lev...