4 ms·

I've given up on trying to change the world. > What will the world will be like in the future is decided by us every day. That's the problem. This "us" you'r

I've given up on trying to change the world. > What will the world will be like in the future is decided by us every day. That's the problem. This "us" you're referring to. People. They're the problem. They have no principles. They stand for nothing. They think they do, but the reality is their principles are easily compromised. They are highly susceptible to manipulation by way of emotion. Powerful emotions like terror and rage. Conjure up some drug trafficking, money laundering, child molesting terrorist boogeyman and they'll compromise immediately. Suddenly freedom is being traded away for security. Suddenly free speech is no longer absolute. Then you see that these weren't principles that entire nations were founded upon, they were more like guidelines, thrown away at the first sign of inconvenience. The harsh truth is that danger must not only be accepted but embraced in order to have true freedom and independence. The internet that connects us also connects criminals, the cryptography that protects us also protects criminals. There is no way around it. Compromise even a little and it's over. People are the problem. They endlessly compromise on things. No ideal can ever be reached. It's an existential problem that cannot be solved. To be an idealist is to be an extremist. Sadly people are not prepared to pay the costs of idealism. The ideal of a decentralized, encrypted and uncensorable communications medium, for example. It requires that they accept the cost that criminals will not only use it but be enabled by it. They won't accept it. Thus we march not towards the ideal but towards its opposite: centralized plain text surveilled and controlled communications.

alansammarone 1y ago
I don't necessarily disagree with you, broadly. The good news is that, I think, we don't really need - if fact, we probably don't really want - most people to accept anything, at least the specific context of this thread. It's about whether we can carve out a space - some space - for people like you and me. > I've given up on trying to change the world. I don't think you have. Speech matters. Ideas matter. I'm not going to try to quantify such things, but looking at your HN submissions and your comments - including this one - I think you are actively changing the world, for better or worse. If nothing else, you believe in objective truth, I think. We have a surprisingly large number of people who don't. > Believe in Truth. To abandon facts is to abandon freedom. If nothing is true, then no one can criticize power, because there is no basis upon which to do so. If nothing is true, then all is spectacle. The biggest wallet pays for the most blinding lights. Timothy Snyder, On Tyranny
- matheusmoreira 1y ago
  > It's about whether we can carve out a space - some space - for people like you and me. Yes. Society at large is a lost cause but maybe we can select some number of known good individuals and form a microsociety inside it where we can enjoy the freedom we crave. There is a name for that: elitism. I'm not against it. Those who don't make the cut certainly will be. > If nothing else, you believe in objective truth, I think. I do.
  - squigz 1y ago
    "Everyone else is stupid. I'm not though. I should be part of the elite" The apathy and disdain people like you display for your fellow citizens is doing more harm to freedoms all over the world than most other efforts.
    - matheusmoreira 1y ago
      Oh please. I've tried to debate politics with people so childishly stupid they thought just giving everyone a million dollars would make everyone rich and solve the world's problems. They thought the government just didn't want to give them the money, like it was a conspiracy to keep them down. I'm tired of it, and I'm tired of people like that having a say in the future of nations. I'm no super genius but I'm done being humble. Even a total pleb like me can rise above a good chunk of my "fellow citizens" because frankly the bar's pretty low.
      - squigz 1y ago
        Too bad intelligence isn't the prerequisite to being an elite, so you'll be turned into Soylent Green just like the rest of us. Anyway I'd take those people over someone as elitist and arrogant as you any day.
        matheusmoreira 1y ago
        > I'd take those people over someone as elitist and arrogant as you any day. Yes, that's how it's done. Take those people, then exclude me. Form your own group without "elitists and arrogants" such as myself. You get it. You're just like me. You just have... Different exclusion criteria.
ericfr11 1y ago
Your path seems to be one towards chaos and anarchy. You are part of the people you are referring to, if I may say so.
- wartywhoa23 1y ago
  Well, enjoy your order and rule of law then - but pray that the rule of law doesn't cross into what even you would deem unthinkable.
throaway1975 1y ago
Attitudes like yours are ones that "they" want us to adopt. Chat Control just got defeated by people power TWICE. Never ever think that you have no power. Why else would they try to control you?
- immibis 1y ago
  Chat Control getting voted against had nothing to do with people power. It was always going to be the outcome, as long as we're lucky enough to have MEPs who are wiser than MECs. Social media outage had nothing to do with it - it was entirely up to who sits in the European Parliament.
  - throaway1975 1y ago
    Well they specifically called out the website set up for the mass emailing campaign as the (a) reason why they couldn't ignore the outrage. Never mentioned anything about social media, but the idea that parliamentary officials are immune to people power is just naive. They do not exist in a vacuum. https://www.politico.eu/article/one-man-spam-campaign-ravages-eu-chat-control-bill-fight-chat-control/ https://www.politico.eu/article/one-man-spam-campaign-ravage... Id also seriously question your assertion that it was inevitable that CC would be voted down, given how much support it has among EU membership.
    - immibis 1y ago
      Interesting. I know in the USA each congressperson has a small team of people to filter emails, including deleting repetitive ones. I thought this was universal. > Joachim's mass email campaign is unconventional as a lobbying tool, differing from the more wonky approach usually taken in Brussels. But the website's impact has been undeniable. Ah, so this is completely new to them - for some reason. Possibly due to constituents having a fear of retaliation on other issues, as Europe has only weak free speech. Well, don't worry, soon the European Parliament will have filters in place to ignore its constituents just as efficiently as every other Western democracy.
Ntrails 1y ago
> The internet that connects us also connects criminals, the cryptography that protects us also protects criminals. Agreed. If only we could also agree that not everyone who thinks this is not a good trade is evil/malignant/stupid etc. idk - it feels like a simple case of priorities. Freedom and privacy are not everyones
- alansammarone 1y ago
  evil and stupid are certainly the wrong words. I agree this is a nuanced issue. however, I think it is an objective fact that certain orderings of priorities - in particular, the relative priority of freedom, privacy, security, protection, "justice" (depending on how you want to define that word) are strictly worse than others. and that assumes it's a zero sum game, which I don't think is true generally. It may be true in the limit, but...we're far from the limit, so to speak. we can have both freedom and privacy and safety. And I think giving up on any one of them is objectively bad, both individually as well as a society. now, on a different tone - and perhaps this really is subjetive/personal - myself, I'd rather die by my own choices than live by others. literally. I think there's close to 0 value in living a life according to values that others chose.
- salawat 1y ago
  Even if you aren't malignant, or evil, then stupid is the only option left, because you've observed the structure of the problem space, understood the new problems and vulnerabilities and points of abuse introduced, accepted their existential nature, and then simply turned off your brain and ceased to continue processing to the inevitable conclusion. You can be evil/malignant. You can be stupid. If you choose to be stupid, none of us can separate you from the evil/malignant camp. So if it makes you feel better. Cool. I don't see you as an evil mustache twirling person, but you're still a systemic threat from your refusal to take into account the threat these tools represent in terms of being weaponized by the first tyranny minded group of individuals to wander in. There's differences of priorities that I have no compunctions having a spirited discussion around. What I refuse to engage in is argumentation with people intent on pissing on my shoes and trying to claim it's raining, or trying to get me to fit the Procrustean bed that makes them feel safer at my expense.
- 1y ago

alansammarone 1y ago

I don't necessarily disagree with you, broadly. The good news is that, I think, we don't really need - if fact, we probably don't really want - most people to accept anything, at least the specific context of this thread. It's about whether we can carve out a space - some space - for people like you and me. > I've given up on trying to change the world. I don't think you have. Speech matters. Ideas matter. I'm not going to try to quantify such things, but looking at your HN submissions and your comments - including this one - I think you are actively changing the world, for better or worse. If nothing else, you believe in objective truth, I think. We have a surprisingly large number of people who don't. > Believe in Truth. To abandon facts is to abandon freedom. If nothing is true, then no one can criticize power, because there is no basis upon which to do so. If nothing is true, then all is spectacle. The biggest wallet pays for the most blinding lights. Timothy Snyder, On Tyranny

matheusmoreira 1y ago
> It's about whether we can carve out a space - some space - for people like you and me. Yes. Society at large is a lost cause but maybe we can select some number of known good individuals and form a microsociety inside it where we can enjoy the freedom we crave. There is a name for that: elitism. I'm not against it. Those who don't make the cut certainly will be. > If nothing else, you believe in objective truth, I think. I do.
- squigz 1y ago
  "Everyone else is stupid. I'm not though. I should be part of the elite" The apathy and disdain people like you display for your fellow citizens is doing more harm to freedoms all over the world than most other efforts.
  - matheusmoreira 1y ago
    Oh please. I've tried to debate politics with people so childishly stupid they thought just giving everyone a million dollars would make everyone rich and solve the world's problems. They thought the government just didn't want to give them the money, like it was a conspiracy to keep them down. I'm tired of it, and I'm tired of people like that having a say in the future of nations. I'm no super genius but I'm done being humble. Even a total pleb like me can rise above a good chunk of my "fellow citizens" because frankly the bar's pretty low.
    - squigz 1y ago
      Too bad intelligence isn't the prerequisite to being an elite, so you'll be turned into Soylent Green just like the rest of us. Anyway I'd take those people over someone as elitist and arrogant as you any day.
      - matheusmoreira 1y ago
        > I'd take those people over someone as elitist and arrogant as you any day. Yes, that's how it's done. Take those people, then exclude me. Form your own group without "elitists and arrogants" such as myself. You get it. You're just like me. You just have... Different exclusion criteria.

ericfr11 1y ago

Your path seems to be one towards chaos and anarchy. You are part of the people you are referring to, if I may say so.

wartywhoa23 1y ago
Well, enjoy your order and rule of law then - but pray that the rule of law doesn't cross into what even you would deem unthinkable.

throaway1975 1y ago

Attitudes like yours are ones that "they" want us to adopt. Chat Control just got defeated by people power TWICE. Never ever think that you have no power. Why else would they try to control you?

immibis 1y ago
Chat Control getting voted against had nothing to do with people power. It was always going to be the outcome, as long as we're lucky enough to have MEPs who are wiser than MECs. Social media outage had nothing to do with it - it was entirely up to who sits in the European Parliament.
- throaway1975 1y ago
  Well they specifically called out the website set up for the mass emailing campaign as the (a) reason why they couldn't ignore the outrage. Never mentioned anything about social media, but the idea that parliamentary officials are immune to people power is just naive. They do not exist in a vacuum. https://www.politico.eu/article/one-man-spam-campaign-ravages-eu-chat-control-bill-fight-chat-control/ https://www.politico.eu/article/one-man-spam-campaign-ravage... Id also seriously question your assertion that it was inevitable that CC would be voted down, given how much support it has among EU membership.
  - immibis 1y ago
    Interesting. I know in the USA each congressperson has a small team of people to filter emails, including deleting repetitive ones. I thought this was universal. > Joachim's mass email campaign is unconventional as a lobbying tool, differing from the more wonky approach usually taken in Brussels. But the website's impact has been undeniable. Ah, so this is completely new to them - for some reason. Possibly due to constituents having a fear of retaliation on other issues, as Europe has only weak free speech. Well, don't worry, soon the European Parliament will have filters in place to ignore its constituents just as efficiently as every other Western democracy.

Ntrails 1y ago

> The internet that connects us also connects criminals, the cryptography that protects us also protects criminals. Agreed. If only we could also agree that not everyone who thinks this is not a good trade is evil/malignant/stupid etc. idk - it feels like a simple case of priorities. Freedom and privacy are not everyones

alansammarone 1y ago
evil and stupid are certainly the wrong words. I agree this is a nuanced issue. however, I think it is an objective fact that certain orderings of priorities - in particular, the relative priority of freedom, privacy, security, protection, "justice" (depending on how you want to define that word) are strictly worse than others. and that assumes it's a zero sum game, which I don't think is true generally. It may be true in the limit, but...we're far from the limit, so to speak. we can have both freedom and privacy and safety. And I think giving up on any one of them is objectively bad, both individually as well as a society. now, on a different tone - and perhaps this really is subjetive/personal - myself, I'd rather die by my own choices than live by others. literally. I think there's close to 0 value in living a life according to values that others chose.
salawat 1y ago
Even if you aren't malignant, or evil, then stupid is the only option left, because you've observed the structure of the problem space, understood the new problems and vulnerabilities and points of abuse introduced, accepted their existential nature, and then simply turned off your brain and ceased to continue processing to the inevitable conclusion. You can be evil/malignant. You can be stupid. If you choose to be stupid, none of us can separate you from the evil/malignant camp. So if it makes you feel better. Cool. I don't see you as an evil mustache twirling person, but you're still a systemic threat from your refusal to take into account the threat these tools represent in terms of being weaponized by the first tyranny minded group of individuals to wander in. There's differences of priorities that I have no compunctions having a spirited discussion around. What I refuse to engage in is argumentation with people intent on pissing on my shoes and trying to claim it's raining, or trying to get me to fit the Procrustean bed that makes them feel safer at my expense.
1y ago