2 ms·

I'm disheartened by presumably left leaning people who are responding to this news with some variant of "shame on them" and "billionaires are bad." I'm not try

I'm disheartened by presumably left leaning people who are responding to this news with some variant of "shame on them" and "billionaires are bad." I'm not trying to defend billionaires but I feel like the last years of left-wing political action has been the left trying to mash the "shame" button without realizing the button has been disconnected behind the panel. The left used to be able to deplatform people. They can't anymore because there's more platforms. They need to think more in terms of sober cause and effect and basic political realities. If they don't, they'll just convince people that they can't govern.

ceejayoz 11mo ago
> I'm not trying to defend billionaires but I feel like the last years of left-wing political action has been the left trying to mash the "shame" button without realizing the button has been disconnected behind the panel. "The shameless have won" is not the left's fault.
- asdfman123 11mo ago
  But that's the problem right there, thinking in terms of blame. The left seems to be more interested in moral correctness than winning. It doesn't matter whose "fault" it is, it is literally an irrelevant discussion. I'd just like to see the left win more. There's also the tension between "the sort of narratives they tell the people to gain public support" and realpolitik. Narrative is necessary in politics but I'd like to see more of the informed, educated left think more in terms of political realities.
  - ceejayoz 11mo ago
    > But that's the problem right there, thinking in terms of blame. I'd argue you started with victim blaming a bit - how the left has fucked up. But I'd argue the issue is the shameless have realized they can escape consequences, and are taking advantage of that fact.
    - asdfman123 11mo ago
      "Victim blaming" applies to blaming victims of violent crimes instead of the perpetrators. If the left wants to cast itself as a victim for, say, losing an election then it truly has lost the plot. The democratic presidential candidates have given off the vibe of "if you don't vote for me, it's because you're a bad person." But what they don't seem to grasp is that makes them just look weak to ordinary people. The purpose of politics is strength and playing weak like this is a losing strategy. Within an extended social scene with mutual obligations, say a political party, you can tell peers "you are being a bully and you should sit down." But the rest of the world doesn't respond to those messages. There are enemies to fight.
      - ceejayoz 11mo ago
        > "Victim blaming" applies to blaming victims of violent crimes instead of the perpetrators. No? Your grandma getting her life savings stolen over the phone isn't a violent crime, but blaming her for not understanding how links in email can be misleading would be victim blaming. It needn't be violent, or even a crime. Shitty parents victim blame their kids for non-criminal things all the time. Similarly, blaming the side that still feels and acts upon shame for the fact that the other side has gone fully shameless is victim blaming.
        asdfman123 11mo ago
        I am blaming the democrats for not doing what a political organization is designed to do: effectively win elections. It is not helpful to blame your grandma who is the victim of a crime. It already happened. It is important to lay blame to an organization for not fulfilling its primary function, because that prompts it to reorient.

ceejayoz 11mo ago

> I'm not trying to defend billionaires but I feel like the last years of left-wing political action has been the left trying to mash the "shame" button without realizing the button has been disconnected behind the panel. "The shameless have won" is not the left's fault.

asdfman123 11mo ago
But that's the problem right there, thinking in terms of blame. The left seems to be more interested in moral correctness than winning. It doesn't matter whose "fault" it is, it is literally an irrelevant discussion. I'd just like to see the left win more. There's also the tension between "the sort of narratives they tell the people to gain public support" and realpolitik. Narrative is necessary in politics but I'd like to see more of the informed, educated left think more in terms of political realities.
- ceejayoz 11mo ago
  > But that's the problem right there, thinking in terms of blame. I'd argue you started with victim blaming a bit - how the left has fucked up. But I'd argue the issue is the shameless have realized they can escape consequences, and are taking advantage of that fact.
  - asdfman123 11mo ago
    "Victim blaming" applies to blaming victims of violent crimes instead of the perpetrators. If the left wants to cast itself as a victim for, say, losing an election then it truly has lost the plot. The democratic presidential candidates have given off the vibe of "if you don't vote for me, it's because you're a bad person." But what they don't seem to grasp is that makes them just look weak to ordinary people. The purpose of politics is strength and playing weak like this is a losing strategy. Within an extended social scene with mutual obligations, say a political party, you can tell peers "you are being a bully and you should sit down." But the rest of the world doesn't respond to those messages. There are enemies to fight.
    - ceejayoz 11mo ago
      > "Victim blaming" applies to blaming victims of violent crimes instead of the perpetrators. No? Your grandma getting her life savings stolen over the phone isn't a violent crime, but blaming her for not understanding how links in email can be misleading would be victim blaming. It needn't be violent, or even a crime. Shitty parents victim blame their kids for non-criminal things all the time. Similarly, blaming the side that still feels and acts upon shame for the fact that the other side has gone fully shameless is victim blaming.
      - asdfman123 11mo ago
        I am blaming the democrats for not doing what a political organization is designed to do: effectively win elections. It is not helpful to blame your grandma who is the victim of a crime. It already happened. It is important to lay blame to an organization for not fulfilling its primary function, because that prompts it to reorient.