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It's interesting how many comments here are knee jerk annoyance at this blogpost, which in my mind does a good job outlining two different financial situations

It's interesting how many comments here are knee jerk annoyance at this blogpost, which in my mind does a good job outlining two different financial situations and how flippant suggested solutions for escaping poverty don't make sense. The fact that many of us here have so much compared to others in our community however you define it is disturbing and not helpful information for our day to day lives so we do what we can to ignore it.

neuralkoi 11mo ago
“How can you expect a man who’s warm to understand a man who’s cold?” - Alexander Solzhenitsyn, One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich I feel like we generally compare ourselves relative to those around us. The US enjoys incredible amounts of comforts (for which I'm grateful for), but one need not travel far to understand how much potable water, breathable air, and electricity are very much not a ready given in other countries.
carlosjobim 11mo ago
I guess because the ratio of people complaining about poverty is 10 000 to 1 compared to people who give solutions to poverty. There are solutions to poverty, which the individual person can follow, but nobody wants to talk about those. It has always amazed me, because poverty is hell. Who wouldn't want to get out of that, and who wouldn't want his fellow brother to get out of that? I could talk about it here, but I would just get down voted [dead], [flagged] and so on.
- dugidugout 11mo ago
  While I understand the sentiment, you stated it yourself, "It has always amazed me, because poverty is hell. Who wouldn't want to get out of that, and who wouldn't want his fellow brother to get out of that?". This is a puzzling question to ask and it shouldn't stop there. The post is very much trying to add some depth here, however it isn't targeting solutions for "poor" people, it is hoping to provoke those who are not to take the problem more seriously. > I could talk about it here, but I would just get down voted [dead], [flagged] and so on. Go ahead and just talk about it, I want to hear it. This isn't so easy a problem, even on an individual level as you put it.
  - carlosjobim 11mo ago
    My solution is boring, but it works for the individual who is in that situation: Go and work somewhere where you are provided food and board and a salary. Not only do you physically get yourself out of the environment which has dragged you down, you can also cut out expenses such as rent and even transportation. Which is huge. Yes, it's not a fun solution. It won't make you rich. But it will take you out of being dirt poor, which the article is about. One example of those kind of places is the merchant navy. You're on a ship, so you don't have to spend any money and you can't even spend it. Instead of going on shore leave like the other people, just get extra days, or work on another ship on your leave days. I'm not going to mention the military, because people might have objections against killing and being killed, but it works in the same way. While you're at it, you have the opportunity for a career or education. And entry level jobs are available for those who have the work ethic. Monastic life is another such example, where you are at least provided for. And traditionally the monasteries have swallowed up millions of people who would have been dirt poor, and given them an alternative. Just like the merchant navy and the military has done the same for millions. You can arrive to these places with nothing but the clothes on your back, and start putting together your life again.
    - decimalenough 11mo ago
      The vast majority of mariners these days are third world nationals getting paid third world wages. Becoming a full-time monk is a slow and demanding process that takes years, you can't just rock up at a monastery and become one.
      - carlosjobim 11mo ago
        > The vast majority of mariners these days are third world nationals getting paid third world wages. So? Is the third world not included in the original article? And also, that's like saying that you can't become a farmer or a teacher, because the vast majority of farmers or teachers in the world are third world nationals getting third world wages. The merchant navy also has many ships which only hire nationally. As per the article, we are talking about being dirt poor. In that case, in the merchant navy you get food, board, medical attention and on top of that a salary. Which may be good or very small. If you have better options, please feel free to ignore my advice. It is for those who don't have any better option, but it is always impossible among hackers to get this through. Maybe we should discuss a few hundred miles of text more about how to change the system, rather than talk about real and actionable advice? > Becoming a full-time monk is a slow and demanding process that takes years, you can't just rock up at a monastery and become one. Have you tried?
- msm_ 11mo ago
  Occam's razor. Either: * There are solutions to poverty, which the individual person can follow, but (even though poverty is hell) people ignore them and prefer to stay poor * The solutions to poverty you think about actually aren't. The money-deprived people already know about them and (having much more knowledge about poor people's world) know they don't work. Since you - like almost everyone here - are a smart person with a scientific mind, I'm sure you can see that the first explanation is more likely. If you get downvoted (as a matter of fact, I didn't) it's only because you declare that there is a miraculous solution to poverty, that would help people, that nobody talks about, and then you well, don't talk about it.
  - projektfu 11mo ago
    Either: 1. There are solutions to organization and staying on task, that person can use, to successfully manage their lives, or 2. Those solutions actually aren't. They only work for people who would have been organized anyway. Casting this dichotomy into a different area that I understand better helps me to see what you are saying. I think that it also gives me an idea that this is not a dichotomy. There are solutions to poverty for the individual. The individual must be aware of them, use them, and keep using them, until they are no longer poor. Then, they have to have a system to avoid returning to poverty. The sum total of this is much harder than it seems, so to many people it seems like those solutions cannot work. Sure, to a person for whom these approaches work, who has become broke and homeless, they can do it, but that is cold comfort for those who cannot escape poverty. Thanks for the insight.
  - carlosjobim 11mo ago
    You forgot with your razor the third option: * People who have successfully clawed and scratched themselves out of poverty are almost never taken into consideration in discussions about poverty. At most modern culture appreciates a rags-to-riches story. But rags-to-normal stories are unheard of. When was the last time you heard about people going from poverty to having just decent lives? Doesn't really pique the interest of people, perhaps. But that's what countless people have done, they're just not considered in the perspective of poverty. At most you just see them as some everyday guy in the supermarket or on the bus. Getting out of poverty and back on your feet again is very close to a miracle. That's how it feels for those who experience it. But hackers spit on it with contempt, because that was not the solution they would have preferred. Or that was not a solution which was applicable to every single person on earth. And in that case, I guess we should file a formal complaint also against all the saints who cured the blind but didn't cure the deaf.
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]
Aunche 11mo ago
Gee. I wonder why people find a blogpost telling them to fuck off and acting like they don't know that quitting Starbucks is only relevant to those who go to Starbucks annoying?
aidenn0 11mo ago
Related: "You can't tell people anything"[1] 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23617188 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23617188
rustystump 11mo ago
I am normally a knee jerker but i grew up in a big family with very little. Between broke and poor. Almost going to food banks but not quite. This is pretty spot on to what it is like. Even broke, something as simple as a parking ticket is borderline life threatening. Id buy the McDonald’s 1$ drink with free refills and calorie load on that all day reusing the cup. He doesnt touch on the shame of it you feel esp in todays us culture. I am lucky to get out of the cycle.
- someone7x 11mo ago
  > something as simple as a parking ticket is borderline life threatening I always lived in fear of being pulled over and getting busted for not having the insurance I couldn’t afford. Eventually get pulled over and ticketed, cough up $1000 for proof of insurance to bring to court then get a payment program to pay off $1000 fine. Once the proof of insurance expired, begin the cycle again. Until I finally got enough earnings to always pay my bills every month on time, my entire financial existence hinged on how often the police stopped me.
  - selimthegrim 11mo ago
    There are definitely people in Louisiana who just dispense with having a driver's license and tell the police to arrest them and they will bail themselves out with cash (and keep the cash around!)
- popcorncowboy 11mo ago
  > He doesnt touch on the shame of it you feel This is the part people who have never experienced it most overlook. The profound, lived-in shame that comes with being poor, and the damage that does over time.
  - rustystump 11mo ago
    This. It is hard to not have that chip on your shoulder.
  - wiseowise 11mo ago
bccdee 11mo ago
It's honestly amazing how many people hold a powerful a conviction that the world is essentially fair; that the poor must have some moral failing which justifies their poverty. If it's happened to thousands of people—if you see the afflicted every day—then it must just be a plague of poor morals. We'll believe anything before we accept that we're lucky, and that we owe something to those who aren't.

neuralkoi 11mo ago

“How can you expect a man who’s warm to understand a man who’s cold?” - Alexander Solzhenitsyn, One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich I feel like we generally compare ourselves relative to those around us. The US enjoys incredible amounts of comforts (for which I'm grateful for), but one need not travel far to understand how much potable water, breathable air, and electricity are very much not a ready given in other countries.

carlosjobim 11mo ago

I guess because the ratio of people complaining about poverty is 10 000 to 1 compared to people who give solutions to poverty. There are solutions to poverty, which the individual person can follow, but nobody wants to talk about those. It has always amazed me, because poverty is hell. Who wouldn't want to get out of that, and who wouldn't want his fellow brother to get out of that? I could talk about it here, but I would just get down voted [dead], [flagged] and so on.

dugidugout 11mo ago
While I understand the sentiment, you stated it yourself, "It has always amazed me, because poverty is hell. Who wouldn't want to get out of that, and who wouldn't want his fellow brother to get out of that?". This is a puzzling question to ask and it shouldn't stop there. The post is very much trying to add some depth here, however it isn't targeting solutions for "poor" people, it is hoping to provoke those who are not to take the problem more seriously. > I could talk about it here, but I would just get down voted [dead], [flagged] and so on. Go ahead and just talk about it, I want to hear it. This isn't so easy a problem, even on an individual level as you put it.
- carlosjobim 11mo ago
  My solution is boring, but it works for the individual who is in that situation: Go and work somewhere where you are provided food and board and a salary. Not only do you physically get yourself out of the environment which has dragged you down, you can also cut out expenses such as rent and even transportation. Which is huge. Yes, it's not a fun solution. It won't make you rich. But it will take you out of being dirt poor, which the article is about. One example of those kind of places is the merchant navy. You're on a ship, so you don't have to spend any money and you can't even spend it. Instead of going on shore leave like the other people, just get extra days, or work on another ship on your leave days. I'm not going to mention the military, because people might have objections against killing and being killed, but it works in the same way. While you're at it, you have the opportunity for a career or education. And entry level jobs are available for those who have the work ethic. Monastic life is another such example, where you are at least provided for. And traditionally the monasteries have swallowed up millions of people who would have been dirt poor, and given them an alternative. Just like the merchant navy and the military has done the same for millions. You can arrive to these places with nothing but the clothes on your back, and start putting together your life again.
  - decimalenough 11mo ago
    The vast majority of mariners these days are third world nationals getting paid third world wages. Becoming a full-time monk is a slow and demanding process that takes years, you can't just rock up at a monastery and become one.
    - carlosjobim 11mo ago
      > The vast majority of mariners these days are third world nationals getting paid third world wages. So? Is the third world not included in the original article? And also, that's like saying that you can't become a farmer or a teacher, because the vast majority of farmers or teachers in the world are third world nationals getting third world wages. The merchant navy also has many ships which only hire nationally. As per the article, we are talking about being dirt poor. In that case, in the merchant navy you get food, board, medical attention and on top of that a salary. Which may be good or very small. If you have better options, please feel free to ignore my advice. It is for those who don't have any better option, but it is always impossible among hackers to get this through. Maybe we should discuss a few hundred miles of text more about how to change the system, rather than talk about real and actionable advice? > Becoming a full-time monk is a slow and demanding process that takes years, you can't just rock up at a monastery and become one. Have you tried?
msm_ 11mo ago
Occam's razor. Either: * There are solutions to poverty, which the individual person can follow, but (even though poverty is hell) people ignore them and prefer to stay poor * The solutions to poverty you think about actually aren't. The money-deprived people already know about them and (having much more knowledge about poor people's world) know they don't work. Since you - like almost everyone here - are a smart person with a scientific mind, I'm sure you can see that the first explanation is more likely. If you get downvoted (as a matter of fact, I didn't) it's only because you declare that there is a miraculous solution to poverty, that would help people, that nobody talks about, and then you well, don't talk about it.
- projektfu 11mo ago
  Either: 1. There are solutions to organization and staying on task, that person can use, to successfully manage their lives, or 2. Those solutions actually aren't. They only work for people who would have been organized anyway. Casting this dichotomy into a different area that I understand better helps me to see what you are saying. I think that it also gives me an idea that this is not a dichotomy. There are solutions to poverty for the individual. The individual must be aware of them, use them, and keep using them, until they are no longer poor. Then, they have to have a system to avoid returning to poverty. The sum total of this is much harder than it seems, so to many people it seems like those solutions cannot work. Sure, to a person for whom these approaches work, who has become broke and homeless, they can do it, but that is cold comfort for those who cannot escape poverty. Thanks for the insight.
- carlosjobim 11mo ago
  You forgot with your razor the third option: * People who have successfully clawed and scratched themselves out of poverty are almost never taken into consideration in discussions about poverty. At most modern culture appreciates a rags-to-riches story. But rags-to-normal stories are unheard of. When was the last time you heard about people going from poverty to having just decent lives? Doesn't really pique the interest of people, perhaps. But that's what countless people have done, they're just not considered in the perspective of poverty. At most you just see them as some everyday guy in the supermarket or on the bus. Getting out of poverty and back on your feet again is very close to a miracle. That's how it feels for those who experience it. But hackers spit on it with contempt, because that was not the solution they would have preferred. Or that was not a solution which was applicable to every single person on earth. And in that case, I guess we should file a formal complaint also against all the saints who cured the blind but didn't cure the deaf.
deleted 11mo ago
[deleted]

Aunche 11mo ago

Gee. I wonder why people find a blogpost telling them to fuck off and acting like they don't know that quitting Starbucks is only relevant to those who go to Starbucks annoying?

aidenn0 11mo ago

Related: "You can't tell people anything"[1] 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23617188 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23617188

rustystump 11mo ago

I am normally a knee jerker but i grew up in a big family with very little. Between broke and poor. Almost going to food banks but not quite. This is pretty spot on to what it is like. Even broke, something as simple as a parking ticket is borderline life threatening. Id buy the McDonald’s 1$ drink with free refills and calorie load on that all day reusing the cup. He doesnt touch on the shame of it you feel esp in todays us culture. I am lucky to get out of the cycle.

someone7x 11mo ago
> something as simple as a parking ticket is borderline life threatening I always lived in fear of being pulled over and getting busted for not having the insurance I couldn’t afford. Eventually get pulled over and ticketed, cough up $1000 for proof of insurance to bring to court then get a payment program to pay off $1000 fine. Once the proof of insurance expired, begin the cycle again. Until I finally got enough earnings to always pay my bills every month on time, my entire financial existence hinged on how often the police stopped me.
- selimthegrim 11mo ago
  There are definitely people in Louisiana who just dispense with having a driver's license and tell the police to arrest them and they will bail themselves out with cash (and keep the cash around!)
popcorncowboy 11mo ago
> He doesnt touch on the shame of it you feel This is the part people who have never experienced it most overlook. The profound, lived-in shame that comes with being poor, and the damage that does over time.
- rustystump 11mo ago
  This. It is hard to not have that chip on your shoulder.
- wiseowise 11mo ago

bccdee 11mo ago

It's honestly amazing how many people hold a powerful a conviction that the world is essentially fair; that the poor must have some moral failing which justifies their poverty. If it's happened to thousands of people—if you see the afflicted every day—then it must just be a plague of poor morals. We'll believe anything before we accept that we're lucky, and that we owe something to those who aren't.