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None of which have to do with AI or AGI. Nestle is and has been 10000x worse for global water security than all other companies and countries combined because

None of which have to do with AI or AGI. Nestle is and has been 10000x worse for global water security than all other companies and countries combined because nobody in the value chain cares about someone else’s aquifer. It’s a social-economic problem of externalities being ignored , which transcends any narrow technological use case. What you describe has been true for all exported manufacturing forever.

tharne 1y ago
Is the argument being made here, "Everybody's doing it"? God help us.
- keeda 1y ago
  My interpretation was "If an industry that actively works to harm the global health of humanity through their addictive and unhealthy food products is using way more water and we're OK with it, maybe we should give a pass to the industry using a fraction of that water to improve human productivity." Ton of nuance in my characterizations of both industries, of course, but to a first approximation they are accurate.
  - whilenot-dev 1y ago
    > and we're OK with it Are we? Is anybody? Criticism doesn't need to be directed towards one thing at a time.
    - keeda 1y ago
      Well, the food industry continues churning billions in profits at the expense of our health, so statistically speaking, looks like "we" are OK with! Totally agreed that criticism should be directed where it's due. But what this thread is saying is that criticism of GenAI is misdirected. I haven't seen nearly as much consternation over e.g. the food industry as I'm seeing over AI -- an industry that increasingly looks like its utility exceeds its costs. (If the last part sounds hypothetical, in past comments I've linked a number of reports, including government-affiliated sources, finding noticeable benefits from GenAI adoption.)
      - dont__panic 1y ago
        Have you considered that there is a difference between: - food, a thing that literally every human needs every 24 hours (really 6-12) to continue to live - GenAI, a new product with dubious value that contributes significantly to the systemic enshittification of the US and global economy? FYI whataboutism is a well known (and honestly quite lazy) fallacy and propaganda strategy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
        keeda 1y ago
        I should have been more precise with my terms, but there is a difference between "food" and the "food industry" indicated by the likes of Nestle. Yes, everybody needs food. No, nobody needs the ultraprocessed junk Nestle produces. I didn't see the OP's point as whataboutism, but rather putting things into perspective. We are debating the water usage of a powerful new technology that a large fraction of the world is finding useful [1], which is a fraction of what other, much more frivolous (golf courses!) or even actively harmful (Nestle!) industries use. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45794907 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45794907 -- Recent thread with very rough numbers which could well be wrong, but the productivity impact is becoming detectable at a national level.
- AndrewKemendo 1y ago
  No it’s a red herring (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring) It’s a fundamentally flawed argument
  - whilenot-dev 1y ago
    What a weird stance. You agree to mislead or distract from a relevant or important question?
    - sethaurus 1y ago
      Attempt generosity. Can you think of another way to interpret the comment above yours? Is it more likely they are calling their own argument a red herring, or the one they are responding to? If something looks like a "weird stance", consider trying harder to understand it. It's better for everyone else in the conversation.
    - AndrewKemendo 1y ago
      I was supporting the GPs premise directly
prmph 1y ago
I think the point is: where does this end? Do we continue to build orders-of-magnitude bigger models guzzling orders-of-magnitude more water and other resources, in pursuit of the elusive AGI? At some we need to end this AGI" rat race and focus on realizing practical benefits from the models we currently have.
- AndrewKemendo 1y ago
  Well then vote with your wallet and convince everyone you know to stop the train. As long as there’s a market, machines are going to continue toto displace labor. That’s not going to stop

tharne 1y ago

Is the argument being made here, "Everybody's doing it"? God help us.

keeda 1y ago
My interpretation was "If an industry that actively works to harm the global health of humanity through their addictive and unhealthy food products is using way more water and we're OK with it, maybe we should give a pass to the industry using a fraction of that water to improve human productivity." Ton of nuance in my characterizations of both industries, of course, but to a first approximation they are accurate.
- whilenot-dev 1y ago
  > and we're OK with it Are we? Is anybody? Criticism doesn't need to be directed towards one thing at a time.
  - keeda 1y ago
    Well, the food industry continues churning billions in profits at the expense of our health, so statistically speaking, looks like "we" are OK with! Totally agreed that criticism should be directed where it's due. But what this thread is saying is that criticism of GenAI is misdirected. I haven't seen nearly as much consternation over e.g. the food industry as I'm seeing over AI -- an industry that increasingly looks like its utility exceeds its costs. (If the last part sounds hypothetical, in past comments I've linked a number of reports, including government-affiliated sources, finding noticeable benefits from GenAI adoption.)
    - dont__panic 1y ago
      Have you considered that there is a difference between: - food, a thing that literally every human needs every 24 hours (really 6-12) to continue to live - GenAI, a new product with dubious value that contributes significantly to the systemic enshittification of the US and global economy? FYI whataboutism is a well known (and honestly quite lazy) fallacy and propaganda strategy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
      - keeda 1y ago
        I should have been more precise with my terms, but there is a difference between "food" and the "food industry" indicated by the likes of Nestle. Yes, everybody needs food. No, nobody needs the ultraprocessed junk Nestle produces. I didn't see the OP's point as whataboutism, but rather putting things into perspective. We are debating the water usage of a powerful new technology that a large fraction of the world is finding useful [1], which is a fraction of what other, much more frivolous (golf courses!) or even actively harmful (Nestle!) industries use. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45794907 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45794907 -- Recent thread with very rough numbers which could well be wrong, but the productivity impact is becoming detectable at a national level.
AndrewKemendo 1y ago
No it’s a red herring (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring) It’s a fundamentally flawed argument
- whilenot-dev 1y ago
  What a weird stance. You agree to mislead or distract from a relevant or important question?
  - sethaurus 1y ago
    Attempt generosity. Can you think of another way to interpret the comment above yours? Is it more likely they are calling their own argument a red herring, or the one they are responding to? If something looks like a "weird stance", consider trying harder to understand it. It's better for everyone else in the conversation.
  - AndrewKemendo 1y ago
    I was supporting the GPs premise directly

prmph 1y ago

I think the point is: where does this end? Do we continue to build orders-of-magnitude bigger models guzzling orders-of-magnitude more water and other resources, in pursuit of the elusive AGI? At some we need to end this AGI" rat race and focus on realizing practical benefits from the models we currently have.

AndrewKemendo 1y ago
Well then vote with your wallet and convince everyone you know to stop the train. As long as there’s a market, machines are going to continue toto displace labor. That’s not going to stop