6 ms·
They didn’t “establish” abstract expresssionist art. They helped promote it just as they helped promote jazz music and other US culture. It was not like CIA dev
by bazoom42 11mo ago
They didn’t “establish” abstract expresssionist art. They helped promote it just as they helped promote jazz music and other US culture. It was not like CIA developed art or jazz musicians in a lab, they just realized it was great marketing for US culture, especially as communist-bloc art and culture became increasingly bland and conformist.
It was probably one of the best investments CIA ever made.
- ta12653421 11mo ago...and dont forget McDonalds and the famous Marlboro Guy :-D
- rixed 11mo agoThis is what conspiracy theorists fail to keep in mind: in politics usually you do not create anything, you reframe and exploit whatever events happen to occur. Same idea with this left-wing idea that "no revolutionary has ever made a revolution to happen". I believe it's particularly hard for people whose profession is to think, design and engineer, to accept a world where there is no mastermind and where randomness and chaos sit at the bottom of history.
- jack_tripper 11mo ago>to accept a world where there is no mastermind and where randomness and chaos sit at the bottom of history Except the stuff people actually care about like purchasing power, bills, wages, and housing are manipulated by purposely designed economic policies and not by randomness.
- joachimma 11mo agoIt seems perfectly plausible to me that the economic incentives are such that there is no need to "design" any of this, no smoke-filled back room needed.
- jack_tripper 11mo agoWhat?! That statement is self contradictory. If you have economic incentives then somebody or a group of people put those incentives into place in order to reach a desired outcome(typically accumulation of wealth and/or power for a target group). We're not talking about facts of nature like gravity or the speed of light. You don't exist in a truly random system but one where you're playing by the rules made by someone else, rules that can change on a whim, as the government intervenes at every level to manipulate the scales, for better and for worse, resulting in it picking winners and loosers.
- Retric 11mo agoEconomic incentives never point in just one direction. There’s always tradeoffs around time horizons, risks, etc which is where individual people’s decisions come into play. Should we subsidize industry X is rarely a question decided on economic merits alone. And so it goes with individual interests shaping the entire global economy in surprisingly profound ways. Extreme ultraviolet lithography for example shapes industries, but has a history steeped in various public/private partnerships and global politics.
- pjc50 11mo agoIt's a bad day for anti-conspiracy theorists when there's a dump of Epstein emails which are basically all "hey guys any news on the conspiracy? would you like some underage girls to go with that?" I would note that the public conspiracy theorists tend to be "exactly wrong", though. Claiming that everything is a conspiracy, without evidence, except the things that have documentary evidence about the conspiracy.
- krapp 11mo ago>It's a bad day for anti-conspiracy theorists when there's a dump of Epstein emails which are basically all "hey guys any news on the conspiracy? would you like some underage girls to go with that?" "anti-conspiracy theorists" aren't claiming that conspiracies don't exist, so no. I don't think anyone is actually "debunking" Epstein other than conspiracy-minded Trumpists who were laser-focused on the Pizzagate/satanic cabal/Monarch deprogramming bullshit until for some reason they decided Epstein was a cool guy who did nothing wrong. Many such cases.
- toyg 11mo ago> Claiming that everything is a conspiracy, without evidence, except the things that have documentary evidence Because where is the fun in that? If something is documented, your brain is not doing any work; it's where the canvas is clean, that you get a sense of satisfaction by firing synapses in original ways. Conspiracy-theorism, at its core, is fundamentally a creative endeavour. It's not a coincidence that, in the '90s, that world overlapped pretty hard with fandoms of open-world franchises like Star Trek, where it's easy to expand and enrich the original content with your own productions.
- lo_zamoyski 11mo agoConspiracy theories appeal to people for various reasons. 1. It's something for bored people to do and to believe. 2. It's something that offers supposed explanations for various real or imaginary events or states of affairs at a lower cost than actual explanation. 3. It gives people something more satisfying than "shit happens", and in this way, gives people a feeling of the possibility of control over the unpredictable (superstitions like astrology and fortune telling have the same motive). 4. It allows people to rationalize their misfortunes, dissatisfaction, and grievances, and to deflect responsibility from themselves, or to give their envies the appearance of a moral basis.
- MangoToupe 11mo agoIt sounds more like you're describing paranoid schizophrenics or antisemites than conspiracy theorists.
- krapp 11mo ago>It sounds more like you're describing paranoid schizophrenics or antisemites than conspiracy theorists. 99% of the time, this is the same picture. Peel back the layers of just any popular conspiracy theory, study its origins and the people who started it, and eventually you'll get to the part where "it was the Jews all along."
- lazide 11mo agoConsidering how clearly Abraham appeared to have something going on - maybe schizophrenia? - it’s all a jumble of the same noise anyway?
- krapp 11mo agoI think there is an argument to be made for conspiracy theory as a modern form of folk religion. Although a lot of that is due to the overlap between the religious and conspiracy communities, and thus very intentional, they do seem to serve many of the same social and psychological functions.
- MangoToupe 11mo ago> folk religion This seems a bit of a contradiction, no? "folk" beliefs seem like the opposite of religion (which, to my ear, requires organization and some sort of canon).
- krapp 11mo agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_religion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_religion
- jasonvorhe 11mo agoAs a conspiracy nut I always wonder how much mental effort it takes to actually find reasons to believe all these takes when basically every somewhat relevant historic event of the last ~200 years surfaces at least a dozen rabbit holes involving people, institutions and connections that often intertwine.
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- Atlas667 11mo agoWell in my comment I said they established modern art. Keyword: established. And the CIA definitely creates some things/narratives. But on the note of natural development, I do agree. You can call it conspiracies or incentives, its the same, really. If its not democratic its conspiratorial by definition. They use tax money (and drug money, possibly) to do this, so they have a lot of funds. If you watch the video I link he talks about HOW they actually do this. He doesnt claim they sit down and brief professors, he says they built an apparatus that simply filters through them and fund the right ones. He talks about how its hard to find jobs if you dont peddle the right narratives and topics.
- bazoom42 11mo agoThis is an even crazier claim. Modern art was created by Braque, Picasso, Duchamp, and many others, primarily in Europe, and it was established as a major artistic movement a long time before CIA existed. The more realistic claim is that CIA promoted abstract expressionism which is a primarily American 1950s art movement which is of course a sub-movement in modern art.
- Atlas667 11mo agoYou are right, I just repeated it wrong, see my original comment. I do claim they established abstract expressionist art, but that is also beside the point. This art would have existed either way. The wider claim is that they controlled the dissemination and narrative around art and the humanities in the US and around the world in order to inflate the opinion of the United States while promoting narratives about the Soviet Union that even the CIA knew were false, as stated by them in released memos. This is the claim: that large sections of the art and humanities were funded and controlled by the CIA for propaganda purposes.
- lazide 11mo ago‘Establish’ often means ‘to ensure it takes hold’. For example, ‘establishing’ a diplomatic presence means setting up an embassy and making sure it doesn’t disappear - and gets noticed.
- neom 11mo agoSimilarly: https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2015/04/13/399414351/how-the-south-korean-government-made-k-pop-a-thing https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2015/04/13/399414351...
- aspenmayer 11mo agoSee also Cool Japan, which saw the power of pop idols, as well as anime and manga, as tools of soft power in the region and worldwide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cool_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cool_Japan which was inspired by the success of Cool Britannia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cool_Britannia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cool_Britannia
- red-iron-pine 11mo agoChina trying to copy that via gatcha games
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- phkahler 11mo ago>> They didn’t “establish” abstract expressionist art. They helped promote it just as they helped promote jazz music and other US culture. I've heard it claimed that they generally don't try to start movements because it's too difficult, but instead just promote and amplify things that are already leaning the direction they want them to go or is beneficial to their agenda somehow. Makes sense to me!
- dredmorbius 11mo agoThis is how effective propaganda works best generally. Find existing propagation lines (whether positive or negative), and gently encourage them. Much recent online propaganda, particularly from Russia and China (though those are hardly the only actors) operates along these lines. Russia generally tries to stir up fracture points amongst its adversaries, China seeks more to distract through diversion (e.g., TikTok) though it also has active antagonistic campaigns. Another classic CIA tactic was not to seek out intelligence, but to plant it, through manufactured journalism. This came out in several 1970s US Congressional investigations of the Agency, by the Church Committee and others. See "CIA and the Media: Hearings before the Subcommittee on Oversight of the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence" (1978): <https://archive.org/details/CIAMedia1978Hearings/page/n3/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/CIAMedia1978Hearings/page/n3/mod...> Carl Bernstein (of Watergate fame) wrote a multi-part series on this, which I've indexed here: <https://diaspora.glasswings.com/posts/cdec9a80ce3b0139a0df002590d8e506 https://diaspora.glasswings.com/posts/cdec9a80ce3b0139a0df00...> - “The CIA’s 3-Decade Effort to Mold the World’s Views” (1977-12-25) <https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/25/archives/the-cias-3decade-effort-to-mold-the-worlds-views-agency-network.html https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/25/archives/the-cias-3decade...> - “Worldwide Propaganda Network Built by the C.I.A.” (1977-12-26) <https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/26/archives/worldwide-propaganda-network-built-by-the-cia-a-worldwide-network.html https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/26/archives/worldwide-propag...> - “C.I.A. Established Many Links To Journalists in U.S. and Abroad” 1977-12-27) <https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/27/archives/cia-established-many-links-to-journalists-in-us-and-abroad-cias.html https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/27/archives/cia-established-...> - “Colby Acknowledges U.S. Press Picked Up Bogus C.I.A. Accounts” (1977-12-28) <https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/28/archives/colby-acknowledges-us-press-picked-up-bogus-cia-accounts-tells.html https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/28/archives/colby-acknowledg...> - “U.S. Correspondents Give Views on C.I.A.” (1977-12-29) <https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/29/archives/us-correspondents-give-views-on-cia-4-at-a-house-hearing-say-any.html https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/29/archives/us-correspondent...> - “Ex‐Envoy Says Risk of Exposure Negated C.I.A. Propaganda Value” (1977-12-30) <https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/30/archives/exenvoy-says-risk-of-exposure-negated-cia-propaganda-value.html https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/30/archives/exenvoy-says-ris...>
- Atlas667 11mo agoYes, they literally "established" it. Thats what that word means. They drove the perspective for the sake of propaganda. They promoted american movies and art everywhere. And it worked. This is how they got young kids in Europe, Asia and S.America to side with them. Through a vague notion of coolness, individual liberty, sophistication, and tying that to progress and to America. If you look at anti-colonial documentaries you can see it very evidently. One that comes to mind is "The hour of the furnaces" about the argentinian US backed dictatorship. There is a chapter in there where all the yuppie city dwellers are very counter culture oriented and welcome the external influence in their country. The way they infiltrate the youth is through this very cultural operation. The world wide phenomenon of counter culture was a CIA fabrication. PS: Communist bloc art is not bland and conformist, it's just about daily life or about collective life. Some of the best western art is also about daily life and society. But thats just my opinion.
- gopher_space 11mo agoAnother way to look at this is that the US has been unable to suppress their own youth culture to any significant degree.