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The problem I have with this line of thinking is that food is also pretty necessary for human survival, yet we've got a vibrant for-profit market that provides

The problem I have with this line of thinking is that food is also pretty necessary for human survival, yet we've got a vibrant for-profit market that provides it, plus government subsidies to provide for those who cannot afford it (constantly creeping anticompetitive schemes, and autocratic fascists' attempts to withhold said subsidies, notwithstanding) Boiling down the problems with healthcare being "for-profit" is like blaming an infection on the bacteria and calling it a day. In reality the bacteria have only been allowed to fester due to deeper problems. I'd say the real problem is this industry has used regulations, both government and shared corporate "policy", to except themselves from most standard forms of accountability and market (aka patient) responsiveness. What other industry cannot tell you how much something costs ahead of time, and operates by sending you an arbitrary bill after the fact that is still fraudulent with amounts of 3-4x the actual prices? What other industry prevents new competitors from opening without a "certificate of need" ? What other industry is allowed to negotiate amongst itself to blatantly fix prices ? What other industry has had a lauded attempt at reform that included making patronizing that industry mandatory ?! This certainly isn't a call to blindly "eliminate regulations", as history has shown that kind of thing mostly eliminates remaining checks while not going anywhere near the regulations that actually need reform (which are a lot of entrenched industry wide "business practices" at this point). But rather these are the terms we need to be thinking in rather than knee jerk blaming "profit".

germinalphrase 1y ago
The first strong move toward any system better than the status quo is universal price transparency.
saulpw 1y ago
You can grow your own food. You can't perform your own cataract surgery and you can't make your own vaccines. As to your analogy, yes, the root cause of the infection is bacteria. Yes, there are supporting factors, like the open wound that allowed the bacteria in, or a weakened immune system that allowed it to flourish. But when you're treating an infection that's already out of control, you focus on eradicating the bacteria. You also clean the wound and boost the immune system if possible, but those are secondary measures. In the case of healthcare, "for-profit" is the root cause. There will still be corruption and capture and psycho nurses, but those are wounds that can be fixed or suffered one at a time. Whereas the for-profit aspect of healthcare is a metastasized cancer that no amount of surgery can cure. We might need all kinds of treatments but we have to address the root cause as well.
- mindslight 1y ago
  Do you see the ability to grow your own food as being a strong check on grocery prices? To me, it's the many competing grocery stores, a few or even many different brands in each, and prices labeled up front. If anything, healthcare seems easier to go your own way - simply by going without. Also can we agree that one of the main reasons doctors go to work every day is for the paycheck? That's a form of profit, right? (And I'm certainly not making this argument to inductively argue that all profit is good! In fact, like bacteria, outsized profits call attention to where the system has problems. But we do need to get the boundary conditions correct)

germinalphrase 1y ago

The first strong move toward any system better than the status quo is universal price transparency.

saulpw 1y ago

You can grow your own food. You can't perform your own cataract surgery and you can't make your own vaccines. As to your analogy, yes, the root cause of the infection is bacteria. Yes, there are supporting factors, like the open wound that allowed the bacteria in, or a weakened immune system that allowed it to flourish. But when you're treating an infection that's already out of control, you focus on eradicating the bacteria. You also clean the wound and boost the immune system if possible, but those are secondary measures. In the case of healthcare, "for-profit" is the root cause. There will still be corruption and capture and psycho nurses, but those are wounds that can be fixed or suffered one at a time. Whereas the for-profit aspect of healthcare is a metastasized cancer that no amount of surgery can cure. We might need all kinds of treatments but we have to address the root cause as well.

mindslight 1y ago
Do you see the ability to grow your own food as being a strong check on grocery prices? To me, it's the many competing grocery stores, a few or even many different brands in each, and prices labeled up front. If anything, healthcare seems easier to go your own way - simply by going without. Also can we agree that one of the main reasons doctors go to work every day is for the paycheck? That's a form of profit, right? (And I'm certainly not making this argument to inductively argue that all profit is good! In fact, like bacteria, outsized profits call attention to where the system has problems. But we do need to get the boundary conditions correct)