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"The Senate is fundamentally a ridiculous way of representing 350 million people" They are intended to represent the states. The whole point was so that smalle

"The Senate is fundamentally a ridiculous way of representing 350 million people" They are intended to represent the states. The whole point was so that smaller states aren't overpowered by the larger states. We simply moved from the governors selecting them to the people selecting them.

whimsicalism 1y ago
I understand the motive, I think it is far outweighed by the harm it does, and it fundamentally undermines the modern American compact. We simply do not live in a federation of states in the way that the EU, this was much less clear and more contested in the late 18th century.
- giantg2 1y ago
  "I think it is far outweighed by the harm it does" But do you think the people in the less populous states feel the same? If we do remove the senate or make it population based, do you think people in those areas will feel represented if they're steamrolled by the urban areas? The point of democracy is to have some say (or the illusion of it) in how the government acts. If you're never sided with but have a large number of like minded people, how do you think they will respond based on what history shows us?
  - whimsicalism 1y ago
    > The point of democracy is to have some say (or the illusion of it) in how the government acts. People from small states will have a say. They will oftentimes be crucial votes. The point of democracy is not that some people get 10x voting power than others. The point of democracy is not that you are entitled to the swinging vote or disproportionate voting power. I am from a place smaller than Wyoming that never got representation in congress in the first place. I understand how it feels to be unrepresented. Suggesting that every US citizen ought to have an equal voice is completely different from disenfranchisement and I'm not sure why you are trying to muddy the waters here.
    - giantg2 1y ago
      "Suggesting that every US citizen ought to have an equal voice is completely different from disenfranchisement and I'm not sure why you are trying to muddy the waters here." I'm pointing out the historical concern that is still valid today. The purpose of the Senate isn't to represent people, but to represent the states. The House represents the people and that already has the proportional representation you are seeking.
      - cthalupa 1y ago
        > The House represents the people and that already has the proportional representation you are seeking. It explicitly does not due to Permanent Apportionment Act. It is more proportional than the senate, but the hard cap on the size of the House and it no longer growing with population still fundamentally skews more power per capita to lower population states.
    - bombcar 1y ago
      The big takeaway is that you are a location where you could increase your political power infinitely by moving to Wyoming, and let you remain. Very few people move based on where they would have voting influence.
      - whimsicalism 1y ago
        Whether people do or do not move based on voting influence is irrelevant to my argument. In fact, if people did move based on where they have voting influence it would be much less of a problem.
      - johnnyanmac 1y ago
        >Very few people move based on where they would have voting influence. Yeah, just the millionaires. Now billionaires. But with internet and private jets they don't even need to move anymore to exert power.
- downrightmike 1y ago
  Compact is gone. They declared themselves domestic terrorists at their conventions, then once in power they declare anyone else are the domestic terrorists and start disappearing citizens without due process to other countries/cecot.
mjamesaustin 1y ago
Yes, what's more fair is for the smaller states to overpower the larger ones. Hooray for the Senate!
- giantg2 1y ago
  "Yes, what's more fair is for the smaller states to overpower the larger ones." Not really. Each state has equal power in the senate. But the people in the larger states have more power in the House. It's not possible for a smaller state to overpower a larger one.
  - johnnyanmac 1y ago
    When larger states have half the seats they should have, it's very easy to overpower a larger state.

whimsicalism 1y ago

I understand the motive, I think it is far outweighed by the harm it does, and it fundamentally undermines the modern American compact. We simply do not live in a federation of states in the way that the EU, this was much less clear and more contested in the late 18th century.

giantg2 1y ago
"I think it is far outweighed by the harm it does" But do you think the people in the less populous states feel the same? If we do remove the senate or make it population based, do you think people in those areas will feel represented if they're steamrolled by the urban areas? The point of democracy is to have some say (or the illusion of it) in how the government acts. If you're never sided with but have a large number of like minded people, how do you think they will respond based on what history shows us?
- whimsicalism 1y ago
  > The point of democracy is to have some say (or the illusion of it) in how the government acts. People from small states will have a say. They will oftentimes be crucial votes. The point of democracy is not that some people get 10x voting power than others. The point of democracy is not that you are entitled to the swinging vote or disproportionate voting power. I am from a place smaller than Wyoming that never got representation in congress in the first place. I understand how it feels to be unrepresented. Suggesting that every US citizen ought to have an equal voice is completely different from disenfranchisement and I'm not sure why you are trying to muddy the waters here.
  - giantg2 1y ago
    "Suggesting that every US citizen ought to have an equal voice is completely different from disenfranchisement and I'm not sure why you are trying to muddy the waters here." I'm pointing out the historical concern that is still valid today. The purpose of the Senate isn't to represent people, but to represent the states. The House represents the people and that already has the proportional representation you are seeking.
    - cthalupa 1y ago
      > The House represents the people and that already has the proportional representation you are seeking. It explicitly does not due to Permanent Apportionment Act. It is more proportional than the senate, but the hard cap on the size of the House and it no longer growing with population still fundamentally skews more power per capita to lower population states.
  - bombcar 1y ago
    The big takeaway is that you are a location where you could increase your political power infinitely by moving to Wyoming, and let you remain. Very few people move based on where they would have voting influence.
    - whimsicalism 1y ago
      Whether people do or do not move based on voting influence is irrelevant to my argument. In fact, if people did move based on where they have voting influence it would be much less of a problem.
    - johnnyanmac 1y ago
      >Very few people move based on where they would have voting influence. Yeah, just the millionaires. Now billionaires. But with internet and private jets they don't even need to move anymore to exert power.
downrightmike 1y ago
Compact is gone. They declared themselves domestic terrorists at their conventions, then once in power they declare anyone else are the domestic terrorists and start disappearing citizens without due process to other countries/cecot.

mjamesaustin 1y ago

Yes, what's more fair is for the smaller states to overpower the larger ones. Hooray for the Senate!

giantg2 1y ago
"Yes, what's more fair is for the smaller states to overpower the larger ones." Not really. Each state has equal power in the senate. But the people in the larger states have more power in the House. It's not possible for a smaller state to overpower a larger one.
- johnnyanmac 1y ago
  When larger states have half the seats they should have, it's very easy to overpower a larger state.