6 ms·

> The damage to our future world order I don't think "damage" is the right word, especially outside of the US. Changes aren't necessarily bad, and, as someone

by usrnm 11mo ago

> The damage to our future world order I don't think "damage" is the right word, especially outside of the US. Changes aren't necessarily bad, and, as someone living in the EU, I actually like the current trend.

mmooss 11mo ago
What do you like about it, specifically?
kogus 11mo ago
As an American, I am also gratified to see the EU take steps toward independence from US foreign policy. Independence doesn't mean enmity; it just means that the EU and US should both be adults in the room, reaching decisions on equal terms. If one takes a longer view of things, the period from WW2 to now is very much an anomaly reflecting relative European weakness in the aftermath of that war's physical and moral destruction. There is no intrinsic reason that the US should take the lead on, say, policy toward Russia. Quite the opposite.
- jacquesm 11mo ago
  I wouldn't say it was weakness rather than a sense of disgust about anything war related. Europe is tired of it, and precisely because of that may well end up in another major war.
  - bix6 11mo ago
    That has more to do with their geography than their disgust no?
    - Yoric 11mo ago
      I think GP means that Europe didn't intervene when Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 and, more generally, has done its best to limit rearmament until now. And we're going to pay for it by having a war against Russia that we might have avoided had we projected more strength. The precedent being France and UK that were so disgusted by war after WWI (and recall that France was the historical biggest warmonger among Western nations at least since the second half of the Hundred Years War) that they didn't react to Nazi Germany annexing Austria, then invading Sudetenland, and in fact not even when Nazi Germany invaded Poland. Had they reacted earlier, WWII might have been avoided.
      - englishrookie 11mo ago
        Right now, Russia's hands are conveniently tied by their incompetently fought war in Ukraine. In the mean time, most major EU countries have increased their defense budgets. Some of the larger ones, most notably Germany, are considering to reintroduce conscription. Within about five years, the EU will be able to withstand Russia without any aid from the USA. In fact, right now, Poland would be able to withstand the Russians on their own. Mind you, they would not be able to defeat the Russians, but they would give them a beating and repel any invasion of Poland.
        jacquesm 11mo ago
        I have a family member in the reservists in Poland, they are on the highest level of readiness they've ever been.
      - kakacik 11mo ago
        This is all correct, as is parent's parent. There is(was) this sense of war being failures of others, fought elsewhere now and we got better and employed more diplomacy (ignoring Yugoslavia which was a civil war to begin with). It made us look weak internationally compared what could have been, and it made us weak. All that military money went into social programs and heavy lean to the left. It sort of works if you have other's umbrella shielding you, which now is questionable (but is it really, I think its more a projection how further can things go in future). For Russia Europe never ceased to be a battlefield - eastern part of battlefield itself, western part as prize to win or conquer. Past 2+ decades of quite overt subversion, sowing chaos and discord via both radical left and right (which is hilarious, seeing 'patriots' parroting russian propaganda against their own country or ethnicity), sometimes outright attacks and assassinations. Secret services kept reporting all this even publicly but were mostly ignored by politicians. Weak long term politicians like Merkel allowed this with open arms, hoping in vain that pure business is enough to keep psychopathic wolves happy. Well what a failure that was (yes I hate her as does most of eastern EU, leftist populist and nothing more which grinded strongest European economy to a halt). Correction is being done, it will take decades but course is set regardless of what next elections in US brings. As for geography - its only relevant doe to the fact we are connected by land to russia. Of course any country which has huge ocean between them and russians is much safer from them. The rest can either defend themselves or are an easy prey.
    - pessimizer 11mo ago
      [flagged]
      - kakacik 11mo ago
        Jesus, what bunch of nonsense, lies and worse, properly insulting without having a clue about Europe (or having and being inflammatory on purpose). Can somebody please report this? I don't have enough karma.
    - deleted 11mo ago
      [deleted]
- dblangford 11mo ago
  US has historically taken the lead in policy regarding Russia to avoid nuclear proliferation in Europe. If the US umbrella is perceived as being unreliable then I think that is what will see.
  - kazen44 11mo ago
    this is already happening. France has already stated it will extend its nuclear umbrella to the rest of the EU. the discussion about either an EU integrated army compared to nato is also back on the table after being basically politically dead for nearly 60 years.
- jijijijij 11mo ago
  As if the US influence was built on charity for poor Europe... It's been all Red Scare and geopolitical power play. The US influence was nothing but intrinsically motivated. The only reason Germany was allowed to be rebuilt was its function as east bloc barrier. The current US government is throwing away a world power status of unimaginable costs, which literally took almost a century to build. For better or worse, but let's not spin fairy tales about the why and when.
- ta20240528 11mo ago
  Damn, are you sure you're an American? :)
- throw-the-towel 11mo ago
  But Europe did block the rapprochement with Russia in the 1990s, which the US was trying to achieve. https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/secret-documents-from-the-1990s-how-close-was-russia-to-nato-membership-a-613a9896-ac9f-46ac-b27c-00547d96b9fb https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/secret-documents-...
- foogazi 11mo ago
  > If one takes a longer view of things, the period from WW2 to now is very much an anomaly WW2 was the anomaly- a conflict impacting all nations on earth, with Europe falling under a horrible regime
  - jacquesm 11mo ago
    Unfortunately it looks as if lots of people have not learned the lessons from that war. This is a pity because that means lots of people died for absolutely nothing. I'll bet that half the right wing voters of today at a minimum would get their asses spanked by their grandparents if they were still alive.
jacquesm 11mo ago
Talk to me in 10 years or so. Changes can be very bad if they are rapid.
- poszlem 11mo ago
  I firmly believe people are deluding themselves if they think that without US patronage, Europe wouldn't devolve into its historical norm, a state of internal warfare. The popular narrative suggests a 'United States of Europe' is forming, but this seems like propaganda when you look at the reality, nations are already returning to the historical status quo, prioritizing their own agendas and pulling in separate directions, much as they always have. A recent, clear example is the debate over using frozen Russian assets to fund Ukraine’s war effort. That single issue exposes the deeper divides. Belgium objects because it wants to shield its own financial sector. Germany backs the idea because it would spare it from taking on more of the financial burden. France, meanwhile, has long argued for a different approach, issuing joint EU debt, an option that many financially weaker member states would favor, but one Germany refuses to accept. EDIT. Unfortunately HN has decided that "I am posting too fast", because I wrote 4 posts, amazing work, I love getting throttled by mods with not reason! So cannot really respond in the thread. EDIT2. As always, thank you for downvoting without addressing the argument. I'll just update this one: > Do you really believe Europe would devolve into actual > internal warfare, without the US? What about the EU? I > believe it has successfully kept the peace ever since its > predecessor, the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) > was created - specifically to avoid another war. > Your example is very on point: the member states are talking > - not fighting - to protect their own interests. It’s really not hard to imagine this turning into something very different. All it takes is a major political shift in Germany or France, and both are already close to that point. A lot of people are still thinking in peacetime terms, but we’re past that. The parties that are likely to come to power soon are not going to keep talking about “European solidarity,” because a core part of their message is that this solidarity has come at the expense of their own country’s strength.
  - BartjeD 11mo ago
    Joint EU debt isn't new, it already exists. Investments etc.. I don't think your narrative is as informed as you make it out to be.
deleted 11mo ago
[deleted]
barbazoo 11mo ago
Same here. I’m not scared of China either and am excited for them to take more responsibility on the international stage. Hopefully US warmongering will come to an end too.
- Yokolos 11mo ago
  Yes, I'm sure all the countries around China are really excited and looking forward to this. Oh, wait ... It's the same shit with the Baltic states and other former Soviet satellite states. They're terrified of Russia, but people in Germany or further West think it's all overblown propaganda and there's nothing to fear from Russia. You being ignorant doesn't mean there aren't real issues and real, justified fears.
  - deleted 11mo ago
    [deleted]
  - barbazoo 11mo ago
    We’ll see if it actually gets much better the a what we have now with the US “in charge”. Overall it might turn out better.
    - jijijijij 11mo ago
      Yeah, for example we only get good cheap jeans, because of high quality cotton from Xinjiang! So, it really may turn out better for everyone*.
  - saubeidl 11mo ago
    The thing is - the Baltic states are in our sphere of influence, so Russia messing with them is a problem for us. Tell me why we should care about some island on the other end of the world. It would make sense to begrudgingly accept it, just like we did US military adventures in South America.
    - jmye 11mo ago
      > Tell me why we should care about some island on the other end of the world. I mean, if we're talking about Taiwan, it has strategic and commercial importance above and beyond being "some island". Certainly more than Central America ever did when the rest of the world was ignoring the US's idiotic anti-Communist adventures. Pretending that it's irrelevant because it's far away seems like a pretty big economic misunderstanding, at the least.
deleted 11mo ago
[deleted]
maxdo 11mo ago
I hope EU will have a functional army before Russia will attack EU , so that US can withdraw troops from Germany. As much as Europe hate Trump, surely Americans too, he was the first president to force them treat defense seriously. Yet all military forces maybe except Poland are a joke

by usrnm 11mo ago

mmooss 11mo ago

What do you like about it, specifically?

kogus 11mo ago

As an American, I am also gratified to see the EU take steps toward independence from US foreign policy. Independence doesn't mean enmity; it just means that the EU and US should both be adults in the room, reaching decisions on equal terms. If one takes a longer view of things, the period from WW2 to now is very much an anomaly reflecting relative European weakness in the aftermath of that war's physical and moral destruction. There is no intrinsic reason that the US should take the lead on, say, policy toward Russia. Quite the opposite.

jacquesm 11mo ago
I wouldn't say it was weakness rather than a sense of disgust about anything war related. Europe is tired of it, and precisely because of that may well end up in another major war.
- bix6 11mo ago
  That has more to do with their geography than their disgust no?
  - Yoric 11mo ago
    I think GP means that Europe didn't intervene when Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 and, more generally, has done its best to limit rearmament until now. And we're going to pay for it by having a war against Russia that we might have avoided had we projected more strength. The precedent being France and UK that were so disgusted by war after WWI (and recall that France was the historical biggest warmonger among Western nations at least since the second half of the Hundred Years War) that they didn't react to Nazi Germany annexing Austria, then invading Sudetenland, and in fact not even when Nazi Germany invaded Poland. Had they reacted earlier, WWII might have been avoided.
    - englishrookie 11mo ago
      Right now, Russia's hands are conveniently tied by their incompetently fought war in Ukraine. In the mean time, most major EU countries have increased their defense budgets. Some of the larger ones, most notably Germany, are considering to reintroduce conscription. Within about five years, the EU will be able to withstand Russia without any aid from the USA. In fact, right now, Poland would be able to withstand the Russians on their own. Mind you, they would not be able to defeat the Russians, but they would give them a beating and repel any invasion of Poland.
      - jacquesm 11mo ago
        I have a family member in the reservists in Poland, they are on the highest level of readiness they've ever been.
    - kakacik 11mo ago
      This is all correct, as is parent's parent. There is(was) this sense of war being failures of others, fought elsewhere now and we got better and employed more diplomacy (ignoring Yugoslavia which was a civil war to begin with). It made us look weak internationally compared what could have been, and it made us weak. All that military money went into social programs and heavy lean to the left. It sort of works if you have other's umbrella shielding you, which now is questionable (but is it really, I think its more a projection how further can things go in future). For Russia Europe never ceased to be a battlefield - eastern part of battlefield itself, western part as prize to win or conquer. Past 2+ decades of quite overt subversion, sowing chaos and discord via both radical left and right (which is hilarious, seeing 'patriots' parroting russian propaganda against their own country or ethnicity), sometimes outright attacks and assassinations. Secret services kept reporting all this even publicly but were mostly ignored by politicians. Weak long term politicians like Merkel allowed this with open arms, hoping in vain that pure business is enough to keep psychopathic wolves happy. Well what a failure that was (yes I hate her as does most of eastern EU, leftist populist and nothing more which grinded strongest European economy to a halt). Correction is being done, it will take decades but course is set regardless of what next elections in US brings. As for geography - its only relevant doe to the fact we are connected by land to russia. Of course any country which has huge ocean between them and russians is much safer from them. The rest can either defend themselves or are an easy prey.
  - pessimizer 11mo ago
    [flagged]
    - kakacik 11mo ago
      Jesus, what bunch of nonsense, lies and worse, properly insulting without having a clue about Europe (or having and being inflammatory on purpose). Can somebody please report this? I don't have enough karma.
  - deleted 11mo ago
    [deleted]
dblangford 11mo ago
US has historically taken the lead in policy regarding Russia to avoid nuclear proliferation in Europe. If the US umbrella is perceived as being unreliable then I think that is what will see.
- kazen44 11mo ago
  this is already happening. France has already stated it will extend its nuclear umbrella to the rest of the EU. the discussion about either an EU integrated army compared to nato is also back on the table after being basically politically dead for nearly 60 years.
jijijijij 11mo ago
As if the US influence was built on charity for poor Europe... It's been all Red Scare and geopolitical power play. The US influence was nothing but intrinsically motivated. The only reason Germany was allowed to be rebuilt was its function as east bloc barrier. The current US government is throwing away a world power status of unimaginable costs, which literally took almost a century to build. For better or worse, but let's not spin fairy tales about the why and when.
ta20240528 11mo ago
Damn, are you sure you're an American? :)
throw-the-towel 11mo ago
But Europe did block the rapprochement with Russia in the 1990s, which the US was trying to achieve. https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/secret-documents-from-the-1990s-how-close-was-russia-to-nato-membership-a-613a9896-ac9f-46ac-b27c-00547d96b9fb https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/secret-documents-...
foogazi 11mo ago
> If one takes a longer view of things, the period from WW2 to now is very much an anomaly WW2 was the anomaly- a conflict impacting all nations on earth, with Europe falling under a horrible regime
- jacquesm 11mo ago
  Unfortunately it looks as if lots of people have not learned the lessons from that war. This is a pity because that means lots of people died for absolutely nothing. I'll bet that half the right wing voters of today at a minimum would get their asses spanked by their grandparents if they were still alive.

jacquesm 11mo ago

Talk to me in 10 years or so. Changes can be very bad if they are rapid.

poszlem 11mo ago
I firmly believe people are deluding themselves if they think that without US patronage, Europe wouldn't devolve into its historical norm, a state of internal warfare. The popular narrative suggests a 'United States of Europe' is forming, but this seems like propaganda when you look at the reality, nations are already returning to the historical status quo, prioritizing their own agendas and pulling in separate directions, much as they always have. A recent, clear example is the debate over using frozen Russian assets to fund Ukraine’s war effort. That single issue exposes the deeper divides. Belgium objects because it wants to shield its own financial sector. Germany backs the idea because it would spare it from taking on more of the financial burden. France, meanwhile, has long argued for a different approach, issuing joint EU debt, an option that many financially weaker member states would favor, but one Germany refuses to accept. EDIT. Unfortunately HN has decided that "I am posting too fast", because I wrote 4 posts, amazing work, I love getting throttled by mods with not reason! So cannot really respond in the thread. EDIT2. As always, thank you for downvoting without addressing the argument. I'll just update this one: > Do you really believe Europe would devolve into actual > internal warfare, without the US? What about the EU? I > believe it has successfully kept the peace ever since its > predecessor, the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) > was created - specifically to avoid another war. > Your example is very on point: the member states are talking > - not fighting - to protect their own interests. It’s really not hard to imagine this turning into something very different. All it takes is a major political shift in Germany or France, and both are already close to that point. A lot of people are still thinking in peacetime terms, but we’re past that. The parties that are likely to come to power soon are not going to keep talking about “European solidarity,” because a core part of their message is that this solidarity has come at the expense of their own country’s strength.
- BartjeD 11mo ago
  Joint EU debt isn't new, it already exists. Investments etc.. I don't think your narrative is as informed as you make it out to be.

deleted 11mo ago

[deleted]

barbazoo 11mo ago

Same here. I’m not scared of China either and am excited for them to take more responsibility on the international stage. Hopefully US warmongering will come to an end too.

Yokolos 11mo ago
Yes, I'm sure all the countries around China are really excited and looking forward to this. Oh, wait ... It's the same shit with the Baltic states and other former Soviet satellite states. They're terrified of Russia, but people in Germany or further West think it's all overblown propaganda and there's nothing to fear from Russia. You being ignorant doesn't mean there aren't real issues and real, justified fears.
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]
- barbazoo 11mo ago
  We’ll see if it actually gets much better the a what we have now with the US “in charge”. Overall it might turn out better.
  - jijijijij 11mo ago
    Yeah, for example we only get good cheap jeans, because of high quality cotton from Xinjiang! So, it really may turn out better for everyone*.
- saubeidl 11mo ago
  The thing is - the Baltic states are in our sphere of influence, so Russia messing with them is a problem for us. Tell me why we should care about some island on the other end of the world. It would make sense to begrudgingly accept it, just like we did US military adventures in South America.
  - jmye 11mo ago
    > Tell me why we should care about some island on the other end of the world. I mean, if we're talking about Taiwan, it has strategic and commercial importance above and beyond being "some island". Certainly more than Central America ever did when the rest of the world was ignoring the US's idiotic anti-Communist adventures. Pretending that it's irrelevant because it's far away seems like a pretty big economic misunderstanding, at the least.

deleted 11mo ago

[deleted]

maxdo 11mo ago

I hope EU will have a functional army before Russia will attack EU , so that US can withdraw troops from Germany. As much as Europe hate Trump, surely Americans too, he was the first president to force them treat defense seriously. Yet all military forces maybe except Poland are a joke