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Bluetooth Channel Sounding: The Next Leap in Bluetooth Innovation
- avidiax 11mo agoEdit: It seems I'm wrong. Channel sounding requires an encrypted connection. It's not something that can be done between a passive device and your phone. It will allow things like secure entry (walk up to a door and it opens, be near your car and you can open it), finding your devices (lost keys, headphones, remotes, etc.), auto-unlocking for your laptop, and more. -------------- This is a really cool technology that is going to allow essentially indoor GPS. Imagine going to a mall, and you open a map on your phone, and it immediately knows where you are to under 1m error.
- halapro 11mo agoDo you still need "satellites" installed indoors to work? Because then you'd have to convince every business that this cost has a direct positive effect on their sales. A lot of brick and mortar stores are based on the assumption that a lost customer will buy more things, so I don't see this happening.
- rtutz 11mo agoThink about how this information could be used. As a store owner you can precisely track movement of customers and optimize the shop layout. BT hardware is also rather affordable.
- AlotOfReading 11mo agoYou're already tracked like that. I was building solutions to do it well over a decade ago. One customer was well known for their mouse themed hats. A famous hotel brand in a well known casino city used it to track employees instead. I no longer do that for obvious ethical reasons. There may be a rare few legitimate uses for improving the accuracy, but it also makes those privacy nightmares worse.
- kenhwang 11mo agoMy previous employer already had a product offering that could do this for a better part of a decade by triangulating with WiFi/BLE and cross referencing with surveillance footage. It was deployed in malls and retail chains. It generated interesting information, but not interesting enough to be profitable. We weren't the only ones with this capability either, most major retailers had this level of analytics through surveillance footage that previously existed for loss prevention purposes. Then simply link the data to a rewards number or credit card and you got a stable tracking identity.
- porridgeraisin 11mo ago> loss prevention So preventing theft?
- meindnoch 11mo agoNo, loss prevention. :) "Theft" is such a value-loaded, moralizing term. It collapses a wide spectrum of socioeconomic realities into a single criminalized label, ignoring the structural inequities that often shape people's choices. When we say "loss prevention", we're deliberately reframing the conversation away from individual blame and toward systems, environments, and institutional responsibility. Loss prevention isn't about vilifying people - it's about acknowledging that harm occurs within a broader context. It centers the idea that organizations can design safer, more equitable spaces that minimize material loss without resorting to punitive narratives rooted in classism, racism, and centuries-old assumptions about who is "dangerous". Calling something "theft" externalizes accountability onto the most vulnerable actors; calling it "loss" recognizes that institutions have agency, too. And preventing that loss focuses on proactive, compassionate strategies rather than reactive punishment.
- jacquesm 11mo agoAnd guess what, that shop layout is not going to be optimized for the customer's convenience, but for the shop's profits. These kind of solutions tend to converge on the 'Hotel California' model: you can enter, but you can no longer leave.
- op00to 11mo agoI work with retail stores who do exactly this in a number of different ways! Many chains are already populated with all kinds of BT sniffing(?) equipment. At least one pings RFID tags in everything every 5 seconds. It’s wild.
- jacquesm 11mo agoIndeed, screw IKEA.
- atoav 11mo agoMaybe US IKEA is different from European ones, but there are literally arrows on the floor that guide you through the whole thing? Follow the arrows and you're out.
- jacquesm 11mo agoNo, they don't guide you to the exit, they guide you past the collection. The whole point is that the thing is set up like a very long serpentine track so that you 'see everything' rather than that you can go to the one thing you want and then to the cash register. This is because they - rightly - figure that if they can keep you in the store longer and expose you to more stuff you might buy more.
- MSFT_Edging 11mo agoYou can enter the warehouse directly through the register area. No one is stopping you.
- jacquesm 11mo agoOh, that's a neat hack. I will definitely try that next time. I have a bad leg (bike accident) and the extra walking really pisses me off. I don't need a stick or other help but I do economize on unnecessary walking on hard surfaces. Thank you. Ikea has killed all viable competition here so you can't really get around them.
- MSFT_Edging 11mo agoAnother tip, there's usually an "offramp" in the later part of the showroom grand tour that goes to the cafeteria section. You can also jump straight to the cafeteria from the entrance at most ikeas I've been to and enter the showroom there to get a shortcut to the lamps and things.
- jesperwe 11mo agoI can imageine that. Although not using Channel Sounding, as it has a accuracy of +/- 200mm according to TFA. Which is still very good, though.
- flowerthoughts 11mo agoI don't follow your reasoning. (+-)200 mm is better accuracy than 1000 mm.
- srcmax 11mo agoNew devices, such as Pixel 10 already support channel sounding. Basically it's alternative to UWB. One phone sends signals on multiple frequencies, another receives them. Obviously devices should be connected via BT. Also tracking people already works with BT/WiFi RSSI (signal strength). Channel Sounding works better because it works even when the signal line of sight is obstructed, for ex. headphones lost under pillow.
- styanax 11mo agoHow do they compare in actual use? I have a Pixel 6a connected to $40USD bone conducting headphones and the range and punch-through are incredible; the phone is sitting in the living room playing music and I can almost make it to my mailbox at the end of the block (about 3 houses away) before it starts to degrade or cut out. Do these alternatives compare with just how well UWB serves regular, normal daily activity like this? Because to me, what I have is absolutely excellent in use with daily routine.
- olirex99 11mo agoI am pursuing a PhD in indoor localization, and UWB is still far superior. That is the reason why major phone companies still include a UWB chip and are not switching to BLE 6.0. I have compared them, and because BLE is a narrowband signal, it is highly susceptible to Non-Line-of-Sight (NLOS) conditions compared to UWB. I also attended a prototype presentation by a large European silicon company. I noticed that even in their demo, BLE did not achieve 30 cm accuracy, but rather hovered around 1 m. I have only tested PBR and RTT ranging with a simple Kalman Filter, so maybe someone has found a clever combination of these data sources (I hope).
- pwarner 11mo agoIs there a good list of cars that support UWB? Seems like a requirement for my next car...
- olirex99 11mo agoAll the new car have the keyless option and use UWB to open and close.
- skzv 11mo agoCool, I worked on indoor localization, particularly with RTT, at Google for many years :)
- olirex99 11mo agoMaybe we can get in touch, I am curious to have a more senior perspective on the indoor localization!
- Onavo 11mo agoAre there any good alternatives? We need something to prevent replay attacks on app based phone far keys..
- throwaway1627 11mo agoWhat an unfortunate name. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sounding https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sounding > Sounding is the act of inserting a metal rod into your urethra.
- toxik 11mo agoSounding in this usage is far, far older than the sounding you're talking about.