3 ms·

The problem is for now more of principle. Any DRM means you depend on Valve/Steam to continue to legally play your purchased games. If Valve has a change of hea

by close04 11mo ago

The problem is for now more of principle. Any DRM means you depend on Valve/Steam to continue to legally play your purchased games. If Valve has a change of heart, or of leadership, or hits a financial rough patch they can easily become a rent seeking gatekeeper. That non-intrusive DRM is the thin line between perpetually accepting Valve's conditions or playing illegally. This isn't a Valve specific problem but they get a free pass today because of all the good things they've done and the good will they're continuously showing. If this ever runs out a lot of people will be very disappointed. I'm not judging them "by comparison" because it's hard to look bad next to Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, etc. Just looking objectively at the situation, even if Valve was alone on the market.

scrollaway 11mo ago
“Not having drm” is also a “for now” thing. Everything is “for now”. A person being good, a corporation being bad, everything can be appended with “for now”. It’s not an argument. You look at historical actions and willingness to change. Valve has been doing business this way forever.
- klez 11mo ago
  The difference is that "Not having DRM" means the games I bought with no DRM is still there once they enable it. For example, with GOG I download the games I buy and there's no way they can enable DRM on the copies I made. On the other hand, if the games already have DRM and it gets worse or for whatever reason Valve goes under and you can't play your games anymore, well... you can't play any DRMed game without using whatever DRM mechanism they'll choose next. In other words "No DRM -> DRM" and "DRM -> Worse DRM" have different outcomes. > Valve has been doing business this way forever. And Google's motto was "Don't be evil" and for a good chunk of their life they weren't. That worked out well, did it? I'm not saying Valve will do a 180 and squander all the good faith it acquired. I'm just saying it's not beyond the realm of possibility.
  - akimbostrawman 11mo ago
    >And Google's motto was "Don't be evil" People here like to pretend google wasn't evil from the start. https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-cia-and-nsa-research-grants-for-mass-surveillance https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-ci... But you are right there is always the possibility they turn to shit. The advantage is that compared to other DRMs it is trivial to break even by yourself and all steam games are already freely available cracked so if they do just torrent them.
  - gambiting 11mo ago
    >>For example, with GOG I download the games I buy and there's no way they can enable DRM on the copies I made. There is no way for Steam to enable DRM on a copy of a game you made after you downloaded it from Steam. It's a weird argument to use really - once you copied the data elsewhere neither platform can do anything with it.
    - klez 11mo ago
      I'm not sure I'm understanding how Steam DRM works then. Does it phone home? Or is it tied to a particular device? How is this verified? In the first case they can just refuse to let you use your copy when you ask for permission.
      - Orygin 11mo ago
        If the DRM is enabled, the game does a simple "Is the game available in the user's library?" and steams says yes or no. If the game didn't have DRM enabled, no check is made. Copy the game folder elsewhere, without steam install and it should launch. Devs can enable the DRM afterward, but your copy won't be locked. But even then, if valve goes bad guy, the DRM is simple enough to be broken, and there is no double check or something preventing you from playing (unlike Denuvo which encrypts the game and has multiple separate checks for the DRM).
        klez 11mo ago
- close04 11mo ago
  > “Not having drm” is also a “for now” thing What do you mean? My GOG offline installers should work fine with or without internet or GOG services for as long as the binaries can be executed. I can pass them on to my grandkids, if they'll ever be interested. You can own games, music, videos. You can do what you want with them, sell them, give them to family or friends. Any non-dystopian interpretation of DRM means you get to keep what you own. Changes don't apply to already owned things. When "renting" changes can apply retroactively to everything. > everything can be appended with “for now” Only if you're looking to be unreasonable and make any argument irrelevant. But we're trying to have a constructive conversation not shoot down everything with generic, nihilistic arguments. You wan to look at history but so selectively that it only supports your argument. Few companies stayed faithful to the customer without fault especially when the visionary leader and owner retired, or they hit hard times. The norm is for them to pull a bait and switch as soon as the profits looked too good to pass. When Gabe is out it could go either way, slowly or all at once.
  - k4rnaj1k 11mo ago
    [dead]

by close04 11mo ago

scrollaway 11mo ago

“Not having drm” is also a “for now” thing. Everything is “for now”. A person being good, a corporation being bad, everything can be appended with “for now”. It’s not an argument. You look at historical actions and willingness to change. Valve has been doing business this way forever.

klez 11mo ago
The difference is that "Not having DRM" means the games I bought with no DRM is still there once they enable it. For example, with GOG I download the games I buy and there's no way they can enable DRM on the copies I made. On the other hand, if the games already have DRM and it gets worse or for whatever reason Valve goes under and you can't play your games anymore, well... you can't play any DRMed game without using whatever DRM mechanism they'll choose next. In other words "No DRM -> DRM" and "DRM -> Worse DRM" have different outcomes. > Valve has been doing business this way forever. And Google's motto was "Don't be evil" and for a good chunk of their life they weren't. That worked out well, did it? I'm not saying Valve will do a 180 and squander all the good faith it acquired. I'm just saying it's not beyond the realm of possibility.
- akimbostrawman 11mo ago
  >And Google's motto was "Don't be evil" People here like to pretend google wasn't evil from the start. https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-cia-and-nsa-research-grants-for-mass-surveillance https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-ci... But you are right there is always the possibility they turn to shit. The advantage is that compared to other DRMs it is trivial to break even by yourself and all steam games are already freely available cracked so if they do just torrent them.
- gambiting 11mo ago
  >>For example, with GOG I download the games I buy and there's no way they can enable DRM on the copies I made. There is no way for Steam to enable DRM on a copy of a game you made after you downloaded it from Steam. It's a weird argument to use really - once you copied the data elsewhere neither platform can do anything with it.
  - klez 11mo ago
    I'm not sure I'm understanding how Steam DRM works then. Does it phone home? Or is it tied to a particular device? How is this verified? In the first case they can just refuse to let you use your copy when you ask for permission.
    - Orygin 11mo ago
      If the DRM is enabled, the game does a simple "Is the game available in the user's library?" and steams says yes or no. If the game didn't have DRM enabled, no check is made. Copy the game folder elsewhere, without steam install and it should launch. Devs can enable the DRM afterward, but your copy won't be locked. But even then, if valve goes bad guy, the DRM is simple enough to be broken, and there is no double check or something preventing you from playing (unlike Denuvo which encrypts the game and has multiple separate checks for the DRM).
      - klez 11mo ago
close04 11mo ago
> “Not having drm” is also a “for now” thing What do you mean? My GOG offline installers should work fine with or without internet or GOG services for as long as the binaries can be executed. I can pass them on to my grandkids, if they'll ever be interested. You can own games, music, videos. You can do what you want with them, sell them, give them to family or friends. Any non-dystopian interpretation of DRM means you get to keep what you own. Changes don't apply to already owned things. When "renting" changes can apply retroactively to everything. > everything can be appended with “for now” Only if you're looking to be unreasonable and make any argument irrelevant. But we're trying to have a constructive conversation not shoot down everything with generic, nihilistic arguments. You wan to look at history but so selectively that it only supports your argument. Few companies stayed faithful to the customer without fault especially when the visionary leader and owner retired, or they hit hard times. The norm is for them to pull a bait and switch as soon as the profits looked too good to pass. When Gabe is out it could go either way, slowly or all at once.
- k4rnaj1k 11mo ago
  [dead]