3 ms·

> On top of this there are 'tumblers' that do this as a service. and using these makes no sense, since it's readily noticeable that you've used one, and using

> On top of this there are 'tumblers' that do this as a service. and using these makes no sense, since it's readily noticeable that you've used one, and using them is basically always illegal. The crypto currency ecosystem keeps reminding me of https://xkcd.com/1494/ https://xkcd.com/1494/ .

somenameforme 11mo ago
This is incorrect. Things are legal unless criminalized, and tumblers are not inherently illegal, and have plentiful legitimate uses. However, money laundering or offering a money laundering service is illegal and so using one in an effort to money launder, or facilitate such, would be illegal. It's akin to something like a jimmy bar. Owning or manufacturing/selling them is 100% legal, but they're going to be used pretty regularly for illegal purposes which is, rather tautologically, illegal. Similarly, intentionally selling them for illegal purposes would be illegal.
kragen 11mo ago
Using tumblers is legal in countries like the USA. You may be living in a country that does not observe the legal principle that everything is permitted unless it is explicitly prohibited, but that is the foundation of the US legal system.
- vintermann 11mo ago
  Sure. Using tumblers is legal, if you've done your due diligence and made sure no one puts money made from crime into there.
  - somenameforme 11mo ago
    This is, again, not how things work. A server operator can be charged for intentionally facilitating e.g. money laundering but you as a customer have 0 obligation whatsoever, besides ensuring that the service you're using is not going to simply run off with your money.
    - vintermann 11mo ago
      That's your legal theory, but I think the way things actually work in the US is quite different from how you think they should work according to libertarian principles, or even according to the laws as they are written. Being a fence, buying from a fence, even selling to a fence can land you in trouble. Any sort of economic dealings with a person you should reasonably have known to be engaging in criminal activity, is a legal risk. I don't think you find very many registered companies whose stated purpose is running a tumbler or otherwise "providing economic anonymity" - at least not in the west.
      - somenameforme 11mo ago
        It's not libertarian principles, it's principles of US law, and in most places in the world for that matter. The reason being or buying from a fence is illegal is because it's explicitly criminalized. You can read the legalese here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2315 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2315 Without that law it'd be 100% legal.

somenameforme 11mo ago

This is incorrect. Things are legal unless criminalized, and tumblers are not inherently illegal, and have plentiful legitimate uses. However, money laundering or offering a money laundering service is illegal and so using one in an effort to money launder, or facilitate such, would be illegal. It's akin to something like a jimmy bar. Owning or manufacturing/selling them is 100% legal, but they're going to be used pretty regularly for illegal purposes which is, rather tautologically, illegal. Similarly, intentionally selling them for illegal purposes would be illegal.

kragen 11mo ago

Using tumblers is legal in countries like the USA. You may be living in a country that does not observe the legal principle that everything is permitted unless it is explicitly prohibited, but that is the foundation of the US legal system.

vintermann 11mo ago
Sure. Using tumblers is legal, if you've done your due diligence and made sure no one puts money made from crime into there.
- somenameforme 11mo ago
  This is, again, not how things work. A server operator can be charged for intentionally facilitating e.g. money laundering but you as a customer have 0 obligation whatsoever, besides ensuring that the service you're using is not going to simply run off with your money.
  - vintermann 11mo ago
    That's your legal theory, but I think the way things actually work in the US is quite different from how you think they should work according to libertarian principles, or even according to the laws as they are written. Being a fence, buying from a fence, even selling to a fence can land you in trouble. Any sort of economic dealings with a person you should reasonably have known to be engaging in criminal activity, is a legal risk. I don't think you find very many registered companies whose stated purpose is running a tumbler or otherwise "providing economic anonymity" - at least not in the west.
    - somenameforme 11mo ago
      It's not libertarian principles, it's principles of US law, and in most places in the world for that matter. The reason being or buying from a fence is illegal is because it's explicitly criminalized. You can read the legalese here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2315 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2315 Without that law it'd be 100% legal.