4 ms·

So your father: 1. Downloaded a weird file from a stranger 2. Went to the settings and about pyone sceeen 3. Tapped the thing 5 times to activate developer

by atoav 1y ago

So your father: 1. Downloaded a weird file from a stranger 2. Went to the settings and about pyone sceeen 3. Tapped the thing 5 times to activate developer mode 4. Activated installing from third party sources despite the warning there 5. Installed the APK May I suggest the problem is not that this is possible, but a lack of education? If your father is the type that would jump into the bathtub with a toaster because someone on whatsapp told them to do so, I am afraid it is not the existence of toasters that is the issue.

computerdork 1y ago
eh, think this is a bit much to ask. Are we going to educate a majority of the baby boomers who just never got a feel for how technology works? Yeah, my Dad also just got scammed by a phishing scheme on his PC (and if a scammer had walked him through how to install an apk on his phone, he'd probably do that too). In my humble opinion, in the design of a UI or any type of system, kind of have to go where the users take you to some degree. And Android, being an OS for consumer devices, should be geared toward the masses and the mistakes they'll make.
- atoav 1y ago
  Should we ban refilling your own cars oil because some idots keep filling coolant into it? I worked in IT support and I am deeply aware with the issues people are having. Some issues are systemic (aka bad design) and those should be fixed. Other issues are human. It may not seem like it, but I have the patience of an angel, because I remember when computers where new to me. I like people to understand. Understanding is power. But when I did work in IT support I saw some things. Grown adults repeatedly clicking away error messages without reading them while I stand and watch over their shoulder. When I ask them what their error message read they say they don't know. Then we read it together and they go: "Ohhh". Yeah. Ohhh. You have a weird error that prevents you from working and there is a red error message and you don't bother to read it. That isn't a technological problem that is a educational problem. I stand by what I said, we cannot dumb down our system because people don't care, are lazy and act dumb. Because that leads to a cycle where it gets ever dumber and lazier all while making life hell for people who are not dumb or lazy. If you want to use a car you need to know certain things. Same is true for digital systems, the internet, a smartphone, a toaster, a hair dryer, a knife, a simple plastic bag, etc. The solution is education, not dumbing down the world.
  - computerdork 1y ago
    Well, yeah, everything has limits and this issue seems like a very practical one. Seems like it depends on how much work would be needed to teach the user base, which, at least to me, feels out of reach. As your being in IT, you may agree that teaching a large majority of 60+ year-olds standard things on something like Windows is difficult and extremely slow. Feels like it would take at least a month of dedicated training, where they are full on board. Having helped my older friends out, don't see that happening anytime soon (a half hour here and there is all they seem willing to do). But you know, if there is a method that you know that can teach the masses these skills, then am all for it (maybe barrage them with youtube commercials teaching basic tech skills?:)
    - master-lincoln 1y ago
      Shouldn't the logical conclusion be that if it's too much/hard to teach these people how to operate a device safely, they operate the devices in an unsafe way, bare the cost of it by being scammed, learn that it's not safe for them to operate the device for certain use-cases due to the experience, they tell others about it and it's in media -> people who do not feel confident operating such a device securely are scared away from using it due to the potential consequences they heard about -> problem solved (from a banking security perspective) (except now the bank needs more staff behind the counter)
      - computerdork 1y ago
        Not 100% sure if you mean this genuinely or joking around a bit. Will assume the former Well, think just letting the knowledge of user failure expand organically is definite a method of deterrence, and some amount of this probably going to happen to some of the users. But to me, seems like it's a question of what percentage of your user base would be exposed to being scammed. Of course you'd want his to be zero, but if it's significant, yeah, probably should put measures in place to reduce the amount of scamming. Even on a purely practical level, it's bad for the reputation of your product... ...Am thinking, since there is so much resistence to locking down android, one problem might be was it was initially billed as a more open OS that tech people could enhance in whatever way they wanted. But yeah, times have changed, it's now a product that is used by the masses, and guessing the masses are now their most important users. Not saying this is wrong or right, but probably why there is so much push back as compared to say if iOS did the same thing (which they may have already done).
yoavm 1y ago
One does not need to enable developer mode to install a 3rd party APK.
peterdn 1y ago
Yes, education around these scams and their methods could be better, but there is also a reason they target the elderly and vulnerable. Unless something else terrible happens, I assume I will count in one or both of those groups eventually. I feel like when I get there, I would appreciate empathy rather than disdain, if I were ever taken advantage of. Regardless, you do not actually need to enable developer settings to install APKs from unknown sources (at least, not on my Samsung). When you open an APK from within another app (e.g. Google Drive or WhatsApp), Android "helpfully" forwards you straight to the relevant security settings page, allowing you to immediately toggle the "Install unknown apps" permission for that specific app. It's a streamlined flow, only a couple of taps, no scrolling/searching/reading, therefore likely easy to coach a victim into performing. So, I expect what the Android team is alluding to in the original post is to enable additional friction like you describe.

by atoav 1y ago

computerdork 1y ago

eh, think this is a bit much to ask. Are we going to educate a majority of the baby boomers who just never got a feel for how technology works? Yeah, my Dad also just got scammed by a phishing scheme on his PC (and if a scammer had walked him through how to install an apk on his phone, he'd probably do that too). In my humble opinion, in the design of a UI or any type of system, kind of have to go where the users take you to some degree. And Android, being an OS for consumer devices, should be geared toward the masses and the mistakes they'll make.

atoav 1y ago
Should we ban refilling your own cars oil because some idots keep filling coolant into it? I worked in IT support and I am deeply aware with the issues people are having. Some issues are systemic (aka bad design) and those should be fixed. Other issues are human. It may not seem like it, but I have the patience of an angel, because I remember when computers where new to me. I like people to understand. Understanding is power. But when I did work in IT support I saw some things. Grown adults repeatedly clicking away error messages without reading them while I stand and watch over their shoulder. When I ask them what their error message read they say they don't know. Then we read it together and they go: "Ohhh". Yeah. Ohhh. You have a weird error that prevents you from working and there is a red error message and you don't bother to read it. That isn't a technological problem that is a educational problem. I stand by what I said, we cannot dumb down our system because people don't care, are lazy and act dumb. Because that leads to a cycle where it gets ever dumber and lazier all while making life hell for people who are not dumb or lazy. If you want to use a car you need to know certain things. Same is true for digital systems, the internet, a smartphone, a toaster, a hair dryer, a knife, a simple plastic bag, etc. The solution is education, not dumbing down the world.
- computerdork 1y ago
  Well, yeah, everything has limits and this issue seems like a very practical one. Seems like it depends on how much work would be needed to teach the user base, which, at least to me, feels out of reach. As your being in IT, you may agree that teaching a large majority of 60+ year-olds standard things on something like Windows is difficult and extremely slow. Feels like it would take at least a month of dedicated training, where they are full on board. Having helped my older friends out, don't see that happening anytime soon (a half hour here and there is all they seem willing to do). But you know, if there is a method that you know that can teach the masses these skills, then am all for it (maybe barrage them with youtube commercials teaching basic tech skills?:)
  - master-lincoln 1y ago
    Shouldn't the logical conclusion be that if it's too much/hard to teach these people how to operate a device safely, they operate the devices in an unsafe way, bare the cost of it by being scammed, learn that it's not safe for them to operate the device for certain use-cases due to the experience, they tell others about it and it's in media -> people who do not feel confident operating such a device securely are scared away from using it due to the potential consequences they heard about -> problem solved (from a banking security perspective) (except now the bank needs more staff behind the counter)
    - computerdork 1y ago
      Not 100% sure if you mean this genuinely or joking around a bit. Will assume the former Well, think just letting the knowledge of user failure expand organically is definite a method of deterrence, and some amount of this probably going to happen to some of the users. But to me, seems like it's a question of what percentage of your user base would be exposed to being scammed. Of course you'd want his to be zero, but if it's significant, yeah, probably should put measures in place to reduce the amount of scamming. Even on a purely practical level, it's bad for the reputation of your product... ...Am thinking, since there is so much resistence to locking down android, one problem might be was it was initially billed as a more open OS that tech people could enhance in whatever way they wanted. But yeah, times have changed, it's now a product that is used by the masses, and guessing the masses are now their most important users. Not saying this is wrong or right, but probably why there is so much push back as compared to say if iOS did the same thing (which they may have already done).

yoavm 1y ago

One does not need to enable developer mode to install a 3rd party APK.

peterdn 1y ago

Yes, education around these scams and their methods could be better, but there is also a reason they target the elderly and vulnerable. Unless something else terrible happens, I assume I will count in one or both of those groups eventually. I feel like when I get there, I would appreciate empathy rather than disdain, if I were ever taken advantage of. Regardless, you do not actually need to enable developer settings to install APKs from unknown sources (at least, not on my Samsung). When you open an APK from within another app (e.g. Google Drive or WhatsApp), Android "helpfully" forwards you straight to the relevant security settings page, allowing you to immediately toggle the "Install unknown apps" permission for that specific app. It's a streamlined flow, only a couple of taps, no scrolling/searching/reading, therefore likely easy to coach a victim into performing. So, I expect what the Android team is alluding to in the original post is to enable additional friction like you describe.