3 ms·

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Their bootloader explicitly supports other OSes. They make it easy to run Windows (even through a built-in app that help

by cweagans 11mo ago

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Their bootloader explicitly supports other OSes. They make it easy to run Windows (even through a built-in app that helps you set it up). There are plenty of reasons to criticize Apple, but they literally don't do anything to prevent you from running another OS.

marcodiego 11mo ago
> they literally don't do anything to prevent you from running another OS. Like not documenting their hardware? Like making Asahi Linux becoming a multi-year reverse engineering project that may possibly never achieve perfect compatibility? > They make it easy to run Windows On apple silicon without virtualisation? Sorry, didn't know that.
- dangus 11mo ago
  The point is that Apple could have easily locked down the bootloader and made it not possible at all to install something else. In designing the M1 hardware they explicitly went out of their way to make sure other operating systems could be installed and they’ve said as much. They took their smartphone SoCs and bootloader that never allowed alternate operating systems and added that feature in actively. Technically Asahi Linux isn’t facing a much different situation than standard Linux distributions as they relate to x86 hardware. There are thousands of PC components that don’t provide any sort of Linux driver where contributors reverse engineer those drivers. Sure, in the PC world a lot more vendors do voluntarily provide Linux drivers, and Apple will never to that for its hardware, and that specific point is a valid criticism. As far as assisting in running Windows, my understanding is that the company that makes Parallels and Apple have some kind of relationship. Microsoft officially endorses Parallels. You can complain about it being virtualization but it’s perfectly fine for desktop apps or even some more intensive apps. And it’s not really a very valid complaint considering that Microsoft doesn’t distribute a general purpose ARM distribution of Windows.
  - marcodiego 11mo ago
    > Technically Asahi Linux isn’t facing a much different situation than standard Linux distributions as they relate to x86 hardware. Very very different. > There are thousands of PC components that don’t provide any sort of Linux driver where contributors reverse engineer those drivers. Increasingly more rare. Maybe that only happens thèse d'ays on extremely specialized hardware.
    - dangus 11mo ago
      It’s only rare these days because Linux spent decades clawing its way into data centers and workstations. You can find a somewhat similar situation on Linux, with other non-Apple ARM hardware.
- cweagans 11mo ago
  > Like not documenting their hardware? They aren't actively hindering that reverse engineering effort. They aren't _helping_ either, but I didn't claim that they were helping. For as long as I can remember, Apple's stance with Mac computers has been "We sell the computers to you in the way we think is best. If you want to tinker, that's on you." and I don't think that has materially changed.
pjerem 11mo ago
> Their bootloader explicitly supports other OSes That’s true but that’s probably only so that it wouldn’t have been a subject when Apple Silicon Macs were released because Intel Macs weren’t locked. In reality, the bootloader isn’t closed (yet) but the hardware is so much undocumented that it’s easy to understand that Apple doesn’t want anything else than their OS on your mac. The « alternative os » situation is actually worse than it used to be with Intel Macs and Apple is paying a lot of attention in never talking about this "feature". IMO, they will just quietly remove this possibility on new generations when everyone will have forgotten that boot camp used to be a thing.
- zbentley 11mo ago
  Eh, you may be right, but there's a big difference between "they are going to forbid other OSes by placing a software restriction where they explicitly permit things now" and "they already effectively forbid other OSes by not publishing developer documentation for proprietary hardware"--that's a tall order, and not a bar that many other hardware manufacturers meet either. Like, could they lock down the bootloader? Sure. But that's effort they'd have to put in for minimal benefit at the moment. Opening up their hardware would be a lot more effort for questionable benefits (to Apple).
queenkjuul 11mo ago
Apple Silicon cannot boot Windows ARM and Apple is dropping boot camp support alongside x86 support in the near future.
- alwillis 11mo ago
  > Apple Silicon cannot boot Windows ARM That's totally up to Microsoft… they could done a licensing deal with Apple years ago to enable Windows ARM to run natively on Apple Silicon hardware.
  - angulardragon03 11mo ago
    This. It’s technically possible (the same way Asahi uses), but Microsoft has to bring the support in Windows.
  - AlexandrB 11mo ago
    Why does this need a licensing deal? Windows didn't need a licensing deal to run on commodity PC hardware back in the day.
    - alwillis 11mo ago
      Because computers don't boot the way they used to in the commodity BIOS era. The boot loader has to cryptographically check that it's valid operating system it's attempting to boot.
  - queenkjuul 11mo ago
    Well, Apple could follow industry standards, too. The argument was Apple approves alternate operating systems as evidenced by boot camp. That's demonstrably not true anymore.

marcodiego 11mo ago

> they literally don't do anything to prevent you from running another OS. Like not documenting their hardware? Like making Asahi Linux becoming a multi-year reverse engineering project that may possibly never achieve perfect compatibility? > They make it easy to run Windows On apple silicon without virtualisation? Sorry, didn't know that.

dangus 11mo ago
The point is that Apple could have easily locked down the bootloader and made it not possible at all to install something else. In designing the M1 hardware they explicitly went out of their way to make sure other operating systems could be installed and they’ve said as much. They took their smartphone SoCs and bootloader that never allowed alternate operating systems and added that feature in actively. Technically Asahi Linux isn’t facing a much different situation than standard Linux distributions as they relate to x86 hardware. There are thousands of PC components that don’t provide any sort of Linux driver where contributors reverse engineer those drivers. Sure, in the PC world a lot more vendors do voluntarily provide Linux drivers, and Apple will never to that for its hardware, and that specific point is a valid criticism. As far as assisting in running Windows, my understanding is that the company that makes Parallels and Apple have some kind of relationship. Microsoft officially endorses Parallels. You can complain about it being virtualization but it’s perfectly fine for desktop apps or even some more intensive apps. And it’s not really a very valid complaint considering that Microsoft doesn’t distribute a general purpose ARM distribution of Windows.
- marcodiego 11mo ago
  > Technically Asahi Linux isn’t facing a much different situation than standard Linux distributions as they relate to x86 hardware. Very very different. > There are thousands of PC components that don’t provide any sort of Linux driver where contributors reverse engineer those drivers. Increasingly more rare. Maybe that only happens thèse d'ays on extremely specialized hardware.
  - dangus 11mo ago
    It’s only rare these days because Linux spent decades clawing its way into data centers and workstations. You can find a somewhat similar situation on Linux, with other non-Apple ARM hardware.
cweagans 11mo ago
> Like not documenting their hardware? They aren't actively hindering that reverse engineering effort. They aren't _helping_ either, but I didn't claim that they were helping. For as long as I can remember, Apple's stance with Mac computers has been "We sell the computers to you in the way we think is best. If you want to tinker, that's on you." and I don't think that has materially changed.

pjerem 11mo ago

> Their bootloader explicitly supports other OSes That’s true but that’s probably only so that it wouldn’t have been a subject when Apple Silicon Macs were released because Intel Macs weren’t locked. In reality, the bootloader isn’t closed (yet) but the hardware is so much undocumented that it’s easy to understand that Apple doesn’t want anything else than their OS on your mac. The « alternative os » situation is actually worse than it used to be with Intel Macs and Apple is paying a lot of attention in never talking about this "feature". IMO, they will just quietly remove this possibility on new generations when everyone will have forgotten that boot camp used to be a thing.

zbentley 11mo ago
Eh, you may be right, but there's a big difference between "they are going to forbid other OSes by placing a software restriction where they explicitly permit things now" and "they already effectively forbid other OSes by not publishing developer documentation for proprietary hardware"--that's a tall order, and not a bar that many other hardware manufacturers meet either. Like, could they lock down the bootloader? Sure. But that's effort they'd have to put in for minimal benefit at the moment. Opening up their hardware would be a lot more effort for questionable benefits (to Apple).

queenkjuul 11mo ago

Apple Silicon cannot boot Windows ARM and Apple is dropping boot camp support alongside x86 support in the near future.

alwillis 11mo ago
> Apple Silicon cannot boot Windows ARM That's totally up to Microsoft… they could done a licensing deal with Apple years ago to enable Windows ARM to run natively on Apple Silicon hardware.
- angulardragon03 11mo ago
  This. It’s technically possible (the same way Asahi uses), but Microsoft has to bring the support in Windows.
- AlexandrB 11mo ago
  Why does this need a licensing deal? Windows didn't need a licensing deal to run on commodity PC hardware back in the day.
  - alwillis 11mo ago
    Because computers don't boot the way they used to in the commodity BIOS era. The boot loader has to cryptographically check that it's valid operating system it's attempting to boot.
- queenkjuul 11mo ago
  Well, Apple could follow industry standards, too. The argument was Apple approves alternate operating systems as evidenced by boot camp. That's demonstrably not true anymore.