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It's amazing to me that people consider "saving time while paying money" to be a good thing. I will never "tap" my debit card as long as I have any legal optio

It's amazing to me that people consider "saving time while paying money" to be a good thing. I will never "tap" my debit card as long as I have any legal option. Everyone else can wait for me to exercise my consumer rights, by inputting my PIN, verifying the amount displayed on screen etc.

Retric 1y ago
Wasting people’s time is rude here not illegal. Courtesy may seem outdated to some, but it can occasionally come back to bite people. Being overly rude to waitstaff is something I’m concerned with around promotions because of how they might treat people inside the company. Without better information you extrapolate.
- zahlman 1y ago
  ... How is this related to what I said?
  - Retric 1y ago
    > It's amazing to me that people consider "saving time while paying money" to be a good thing. If you’re checking it at a grocery store it’s likely there’s someone in line behind you waiting to pay, it’s a fairly common aspect of physical transactions. Waiting for you to count out your pennies is the kind of thing that evokes rage in people because it’s so rude.
    - zahlman 1y ago
      > If you’re checking it at a grocery store it’s likely there’s someone in line behind you waiting to pay I usually use the self check-out which is usually not at all busy when I get there. > Waiting for you to count out your pennies I was explicitly talking about using a debit card, and as I established repeatedly throughout the thread, my country hasn't used pennies for over a decade. But on the occasions that I pay cash, I do try to make exact change, because that's courteous to the cashier (and also just satisfies my aesthetic sense). I'm quick about this, because being the sort of person who posts on Hacker News, my mental arithmetic is pretty good. > is the kind of thing that evokes rage in people because it’s so rude. I've had people in front of me "waste" far more time than that because they had to cancel items (and deliberate over what to send back), struggle to pull things out of their cart, etc. It doesn't bother me. If I urgently needed to be somewhere else I would have planned my trip for another time. It already takes quite a while because I walk both ways (which I also enjoy quite a bit by the way). People ITT are talking about the value of time, but I can't reasonably value each second equally. Time is not nearly as fungible as money; ten seconds saved on an outing is just not going to translate into ten seconds spent on my projects. Nor can I make myself feel as though every moment not spent on acquiring capital is equally wasted. And I deeply resent the implication that using XYZ technology to save time is a moral imperative.
      - Retric 1y ago
        For a cashier sorting a customers change and presumably multiple small denomination bills is more effort than the rote action of handing out change. Handing exact change is therefore significantly slower for everyone else. > using SYZ technology to save time is a moral imperative Saving other people’s time is the imperative, the technology bit is simply how that happens. People can for example fill most of a check out before they know the exact amount, but you rarely see it.
robocat 1y ago
I've seen a pattern where people that value their own time at $0 unfortunately often value the time of others at $0. Worse is valuing others at $0 and your own at $lots (which is also common).
- zahlman 1y ago
  Interesting. I don't know what to make of the idea that I'm "not valuing my time" by carefully considering my purchases and caring about security. Or that the seconds I take on this are so important to both myself and others, compared to the time spent browsing the store shelves, getting to and from the place, etc. Heaven forbid I choose the cashier instead of a self check-out this time, and try to strike up a conversation.
quesera 1y ago
Entering your PIN and using a debit card is the least secure/safe version of electronic payment. Tapping (NFC) or dipping (EMV) are safer and faster for everyone.
- zahlman 1y ago
  How do you figure? My threat model includes people stealing the card. I can have tap disabled on the card, and then thieves don't know my PIN. Yes, yes, that's like 13 bits of entropy. But it's not like they can use a computer to brute-force it.
  - vlovich123 1y ago
    I think your threat model is incomplete. You’re far more likely to have your card cloned and pin stolen through a fake terminal. I’ve actually had that happen to me vs 0 times have I had fraudulent transactions due to a stolen card. Tap/dip payment is non cloneable even by a fake terminal. Outside the US tap+pin/dip+pin is even common but banks for some reason really are averse to requiring Americans to add a pin to credit cards.
    - zahlman 1y ago
      > fake terminal ... at the self-checkout of a major grocery store? > Outside the US tap+pin/dip+pin is even common As far as I can tell "dip + pin" is exactly what I do with a debit card. This is literally the first time I've ever heard the term "EMV", so I looked it up: > EMV cards are smart cards, also called chip cards, integrated circuit cards (ICC), or IC cards, which store their data on integrated circuit chips, in addition to magnetic stripes for backward compatibility. These include cards that must be physically inserted or "dipped" into a reader As far as I can tell, that exactly describes my debit card. > but banks for some reason really are averse to requiring Americans to add a pin to credit cards. Well, yes, the entire selling point of tapping the card is that you don't spend those precious seconds on entering a pin. And my point here is to reject that culture of hurrying up (at the potential expense of carelessness).
msla 1y ago
> my consumer rights How pitiful are you to think "consumer rights" not only exist, but are worth "exercising"? What, do you have the right to spend money on marked-up garbage? The right to be sold to bigger "consumers"? You are just a "consumer" and not a citizen, apparently.

Retric 1y ago

Wasting people’s time is rude here not illegal. Courtesy may seem outdated to some, but it can occasionally come back to bite people. Being overly rude to waitstaff is something I’m concerned with around promotions because of how they might treat people inside the company. Without better information you extrapolate.

zahlman 1y ago
... How is this related to what I said?
- Retric 1y ago
  > It's amazing to me that people consider "saving time while paying money" to be a good thing. If you’re checking it at a grocery store it’s likely there’s someone in line behind you waiting to pay, it’s a fairly common aspect of physical transactions. Waiting for you to count out your pennies is the kind of thing that evokes rage in people because it’s so rude.
  - zahlman 1y ago
    > If you’re checking it at a grocery store it’s likely there’s someone in line behind you waiting to pay I usually use the self check-out which is usually not at all busy when I get there. > Waiting for you to count out your pennies I was explicitly talking about using a debit card, and as I established repeatedly throughout the thread, my country hasn't used pennies for over a decade. But on the occasions that I pay cash, I do try to make exact change, because that's courteous to the cashier (and also just satisfies my aesthetic sense). I'm quick about this, because being the sort of person who posts on Hacker News, my mental arithmetic is pretty good. > is the kind of thing that evokes rage in people because it’s so rude. I've had people in front of me "waste" far more time than that because they had to cancel items (and deliberate over what to send back), struggle to pull things out of their cart, etc. It doesn't bother me. If I urgently needed to be somewhere else I would have planned my trip for another time. It already takes quite a while because I walk both ways (which I also enjoy quite a bit by the way). People ITT are talking about the value of time, but I can't reasonably value each second equally. Time is not nearly as fungible as money; ten seconds saved on an outing is just not going to translate into ten seconds spent on my projects. Nor can I make myself feel as though every moment not spent on acquiring capital is equally wasted. And I deeply resent the implication that using XYZ technology to save time is a moral imperative.
    - Retric 1y ago
      For a cashier sorting a customers change and presumably multiple small denomination bills is more effort than the rote action of handing out change. Handing exact change is therefore significantly slower for everyone else. > using SYZ technology to save time is a moral imperative Saving other people’s time is the imperative, the technology bit is simply how that happens. People can for example fill most of a check out before they know the exact amount, but you rarely see it.

robocat 1y ago

I've seen a pattern where people that value their own time at $0 unfortunately often value the time of others at $0. Worse is valuing others at $0 and your own at $lots (which is also common).

zahlman 1y ago
Interesting. I don't know what to make of the idea that I'm "not valuing my time" by carefully considering my purchases and caring about security. Or that the seconds I take on this are so important to both myself and others, compared to the time spent browsing the store shelves, getting to and from the place, etc. Heaven forbid I choose the cashier instead of a self check-out this time, and try to strike up a conversation.

quesera 1y ago

Entering your PIN and using a debit card is the least secure/safe version of electronic payment. Tapping (NFC) or dipping (EMV) are safer and faster for everyone.

zahlman 1y ago
How do you figure? My threat model includes people stealing the card. I can have tap disabled on the card, and then thieves don't know my PIN. Yes, yes, that's like 13 bits of entropy. But it's not like they can use a computer to brute-force it.
- vlovich123 1y ago
  I think your threat model is incomplete. You’re far more likely to have your card cloned and pin stolen through a fake terminal. I’ve actually had that happen to me vs 0 times have I had fraudulent transactions due to a stolen card. Tap/dip payment is non cloneable even by a fake terminal. Outside the US tap+pin/dip+pin is even common but banks for some reason really are averse to requiring Americans to add a pin to credit cards.
  - zahlman 1y ago
    > fake terminal ... at the self-checkout of a major grocery store? > Outside the US tap+pin/dip+pin is even common As far as I can tell "dip + pin" is exactly what I do with a debit card. This is literally the first time I've ever heard the term "EMV", so I looked it up: > EMV cards are smart cards, also called chip cards, integrated circuit cards (ICC), or IC cards, which store their data on integrated circuit chips, in addition to magnetic stripes for backward compatibility. These include cards that must be physically inserted or "dipped" into a reader As far as I can tell, that exactly describes my debit card. > but banks for some reason really are averse to requiring Americans to add a pin to credit cards. Well, yes, the entire selling point of tapping the card is that you don't spend those precious seconds on entering a pin. And my point here is to reject that culture of hurrying up (at the potential expense of carelessness).

msla 1y ago

> my consumer rights How pitiful are you to think "consumer rights" not only exist, but are worth "exercising"? What, do you have the right to spend money on marked-up garbage? The right to be sold to bigger "consumers"? You are just a "consumer" and not a citizen, apparently.