5 ms·

Can we use this for voter ID?

by sugarpimpdorsey 11mo ago

SV_BubbleTime 11mo ago
You have to show ID to vote in my country, I thought that was the normal thing.
- hexis 11mo ago
  It is, many states in the US are abnormal in this way.
- baggy_trough 11mo ago
  [flagged]
  - drdaeman 11mo ago
    No party in the US seem to fight for a secure (end-to-end auditable) voting process. I've yet to hear any politician talk about anything like that, a process where no voter has to trust the system and can be still confident (assuming they understand the underlying math) their vote was counted and counted correctly. It is true that every scheme out there (that I've read about) has some flaws. But I'd rather have NSA spending their budgets and talent working on this kind of stuff, than spying on citizens or whatever they do. The current discourse is all about identification during registration vs when voting. Which is meaningful but feels like avoiding the actual issue, as it is still not really secure either way.
    - kayodelycaon 11mo ago
      The reason is nobody trusts a single party to implement that honestly. Last time I checked, Party X only cared about Party Y’s voters who are voting illegally. They’re perfectly fine with their voters doing it. Technology is a tool against corruption not a cure for it.
      - drdaeman 11mo ago
        Sure, but that's the point of an end-to-end auditable system so you don't have to trust whoever implements it. The whole idea is that no crooks can make math work any differently than it does.
      - op00to 11mo ago
        What Democratic policies are geared towards disenfranchising Republican voters? I don't believe there are any. Unlike Republican-enacted policies, which have been found in court to have discriminatory intent.
        SV_BubbleTime 11mo ago
        I don’t have a say here… but wouldn’t allowing potentially illegal votes be exactly disenfranchising the side that illegal votes do not benefit?
        op00to 11mo ago
        Allowing “potentially illegal votes” is a hypothetical. Actual disenfranchisement is not hypothetical, it is measurable. To date, every audit, recount, signature review, and court case has found illegal voting rates so low they have no statistical impact. Meanwhile, multiple Republican-backed laws have been struck down by federal courts for intentionally or disproportionately disenfranchising specific groups of eligible voters. So one side is dealing with documented, court-verified disenfranchisement. The other is raising a theoretical scenario that has no evidence behind it. Hypotheticals do not outweigh the real, observed effects of restrictive voting laws on lawful voters.
        baggy_trough 11mo ago
        Leftists fight as hard as they can for an insecure and unverifiable voting system, so it's not surprising that audits, cases, etc. find little fraud. That's the entire idea, to make it difficult if not impossible to find!
  - nerdjon 11mo ago
    Very very few people actually fundamentally disagree with the core idea of identification to vote. The problem is the act of getting the ID itself. In most (all?) states getting an ID is not free, takes time, and if you lost everything will require jumping through a lot of hoops. If getting an ID was actually simple, free, and not time consuming than we could have a genuine discussion about ID requirements. But until that point it is very thinly veiled classism and racism. Also the numbers just simply don't back up this being a serious issue to begin with. TLDR: Fix the fundamental issues with having identification in the first place and we can talk.
  - blackqueeriroh 11mo ago
    In the United States, getting an ID is expensive and time-consuming and is often inaccessible to many people, particularly those who don’t speak English, are poor, or work service jobs. These people are the same people who are historically marginalized and oppressed. This is why voter ID laws in the United States are fundamentally anti-democratic and disenfranchising. If IDs were free and incredibly easy to get, I wouldn’t care about a voter ID law.
    - atonse 11mo ago
      I hear this a lot, can you give me any examples of how these IDs are inaccessible? Can you please give concrete examples of what is asked for that feels onerous, or any specific cases where people aren't able to get IDs? For example, I know that Maryland DMV will even offer a translator to help you with your driving test. I'm not sure why, because all signs are in English. I have seen exactly the opposite, that at least in Maryland and bigger states, they go out of their way to make things convenient.
      - tzs 11mo ago
        Here's a comment [1] from a discussion a prior thread that contains a whole bunch of links to why ID is very hard to get for many eligible voters. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42116609 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42116609
        atonse 11mo ago
        Thank you. This is why I appreciate HN.
    - dzhiurgis 11mo ago
      How do they buy alcohol?
      - acdha 11mo ago
        40% of Americans never do, and many of the people who do don’t buy it themselves. For example, elderly people are one of the groups which disproportionately lack current photo ID but would also be more likely to have relatives helping with their shopping or simply not being carded either because they’re visibly far past the limit or have been buying at the same place for ages.
  - insane_dreamer 11mo ago
    > leftists fight as hard as they can for an insecure and unverified voting process that is false what they fight for is a voting process that provides equal access to voting by all citizens for those from Europe who wonder why this is even an issue when voting is the most basic of rights in a democracy, the US has a terrible history of voter suppression, especially of African Americans, where local systems were intentionally designed to make it as difficult for them to vote; this still happens today the fact that voting takes place on a weekday, and you don't get a day off from work to do it, and polling stations in poorer areas are removed or have restricted hours, is one example of how the right to vote is stacked against poorer working class people this is why some states allow you to vote by mail, which Trump is desperately trying to outlaw if you're worried about insecure voting processes, lets take a look at the companies who own the electronic voting machines
- pat2man 11mo ago
  We don't have a national ID here in the US. Passports can be quite expensive. Local state ID cards don't prove citizenship.
  - 0x457 11mo ago
    > Passports can be quite expensive. It's $165 per 10 years if you don't lose it or $65 if you just need in place of national ID (i.e. no international travel). I think anyone can save up that much in 10 years, renewals a bit cheaper btw. > Local state ID cards don't prove citizenship. No, but to get a Real ID in any state you have to prove you're in the country legally, and in some states to get any form of ID you have to prove that.
op00to 11mo ago
Americans do not need to provide ID to vote, so no?
- saguntum 11mo ago
  In some states you do need ID to vote. Texas, for example.
  - op00to 11mo ago
    Huh, thanks! I am a yankee so I have a bit of a limited view.

Can we use this for voter ID?

SV_BubbleTime 11mo ago

You have to show ID to vote in my country, I thought that was the normal thing.

hexis 11mo ago
It is, many states in the US are abnormal in this way.
baggy_trough 11mo ago
[flagged]
- drdaeman 11mo ago
  No party in the US seem to fight for a secure (end-to-end auditable) voting process. I've yet to hear any politician talk about anything like that, a process where no voter has to trust the system and can be still confident (assuming they understand the underlying math) their vote was counted and counted correctly. It is true that every scheme out there (that I've read about) has some flaws. But I'd rather have NSA spending their budgets and talent working on this kind of stuff, than spying on citizens or whatever they do. The current discourse is all about identification during registration vs when voting. Which is meaningful but feels like avoiding the actual issue, as it is still not really secure either way.
  - kayodelycaon 11mo ago
    The reason is nobody trusts a single party to implement that honestly. Last time I checked, Party X only cared about Party Y’s voters who are voting illegally. They’re perfectly fine with their voters doing it. Technology is a tool against corruption not a cure for it.
    - drdaeman 11mo ago
      Sure, but that's the point of an end-to-end auditable system so you don't have to trust whoever implements it. The whole idea is that no crooks can make math work any differently than it does.
    - op00to 11mo ago
      What Democratic policies are geared towards disenfranchising Republican voters? I don't believe there are any. Unlike Republican-enacted policies, which have been found in court to have discriminatory intent.
      - SV_BubbleTime 11mo ago
        I don’t have a say here… but wouldn’t allowing potentially illegal votes be exactly disenfranchising the side that illegal votes do not benefit?
        op00to 11mo ago
        Allowing “potentially illegal votes” is a hypothetical. Actual disenfranchisement is not hypothetical, it is measurable. To date, every audit, recount, signature review, and court case has found illegal voting rates so low they have no statistical impact. Meanwhile, multiple Republican-backed laws have been struck down by federal courts for intentionally or disproportionately disenfranchising specific groups of eligible voters. So one side is dealing with documented, court-verified disenfranchisement. The other is raising a theoretical scenario that has no evidence behind it. Hypotheticals do not outweigh the real, observed effects of restrictive voting laws on lawful voters.
        baggy_trough 11mo ago
        Leftists fight as hard as they can for an insecure and unverifiable voting system, so it's not surprising that audits, cases, etc. find little fraud. That's the entire idea, to make it difficult if not impossible to find!
- nerdjon 11mo ago
  Very very few people actually fundamentally disagree with the core idea of identification to vote. The problem is the act of getting the ID itself. In most (all?) states getting an ID is not free, takes time, and if you lost everything will require jumping through a lot of hoops. If getting an ID was actually simple, free, and not time consuming than we could have a genuine discussion about ID requirements. But until that point it is very thinly veiled classism and racism. Also the numbers just simply don't back up this being a serious issue to begin with. TLDR: Fix the fundamental issues with having identification in the first place and we can talk.
- blackqueeriroh 11mo ago
  In the United States, getting an ID is expensive and time-consuming and is often inaccessible to many people, particularly those who don’t speak English, are poor, or work service jobs. These people are the same people who are historically marginalized and oppressed. This is why voter ID laws in the United States are fundamentally anti-democratic and disenfranchising. If IDs were free and incredibly easy to get, I wouldn’t care about a voter ID law.
  - atonse 11mo ago
    I hear this a lot, can you give me any examples of how these IDs are inaccessible? Can you please give concrete examples of what is asked for that feels onerous, or any specific cases where people aren't able to get IDs? For example, I know that Maryland DMV will even offer a translator to help you with your driving test. I'm not sure why, because all signs are in English. I have seen exactly the opposite, that at least in Maryland and bigger states, they go out of their way to make things convenient.
    - tzs 11mo ago
      Here's a comment [1] from a discussion a prior thread that contains a whole bunch of links to why ID is very hard to get for many eligible voters. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42116609 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42116609
      - atonse 11mo ago
        Thank you. This is why I appreciate HN.
  - dzhiurgis 11mo ago
    How do they buy alcohol?
    - acdha 11mo ago
      40% of Americans never do, and many of the people who do don’t buy it themselves. For example, elderly people are one of the groups which disproportionately lack current photo ID but would also be more likely to have relatives helping with their shopping or simply not being carded either because they’re visibly far past the limit or have been buying at the same place for ages.
- insane_dreamer 11mo ago
  > leftists fight as hard as they can for an insecure and unverified voting process that is false what they fight for is a voting process that provides equal access to voting by all citizens for those from Europe who wonder why this is even an issue when voting is the most basic of rights in a democracy, the US has a terrible history of voter suppression, especially of African Americans, where local systems were intentionally designed to make it as difficult for them to vote; this still happens today the fact that voting takes place on a weekday, and you don't get a day off from work to do it, and polling stations in poorer areas are removed or have restricted hours, is one example of how the right to vote is stacked against poorer working class people this is why some states allow you to vote by mail, which Trump is desperately trying to outlaw if you're worried about insecure voting processes, lets take a look at the companies who own the electronic voting machines
pat2man 11mo ago
We don't have a national ID here in the US. Passports can be quite expensive. Local state ID cards don't prove citizenship.
- 0x457 11mo ago
  > Passports can be quite expensive. It's $165 per 10 years if you don't lose it or $65 if you just need in place of national ID (i.e. no international travel). I think anyone can save up that much in 10 years, renewals a bit cheaper btw. > Local state ID cards don't prove citizenship. No, but to get a Real ID in any state you have to prove you're in the country legally, and in some states to get any form of ID you have to prove that.

op00to 11mo ago

Americans do not need to provide ID to vote, so no?

saguntum 11mo ago
In some states you do need ID to vote. Texas, for example.
- op00to 11mo ago
  Huh, thanks! I am a yankee so I have a bit of a limited view.