3 ms·

>startups should consider niche language with extremely limited hiring pool. sure, but only if you're doing something that actually demands it - and actual inn

by Xelbair 11mo ago

>startups should consider niche language with extremely limited hiring pool. sure, but only if you're doing something that actually demands it - and actual innovation - instead of usual 'lets repackage XYZ as SaaS and growthhack' strategy.

dude250711 11mo ago
It's good for, and I am not being sarcastic or snarky, justifying high pay and gate-keeping. Developers should set up more barriers for entry - look at doctors and lawyers.
- stiiv 11mo ago
  I think I agree with you. When I was part of a growing F# team a number of years ago, everyone we hired was an enthusiast who just loved coding in F# and wanted an opportunity to do it professionally. It turned out that this love, combined with the constraints of the language, led to a super-clean and legible code base. The quality was (in my estimation) outstanding, and I was sad to leave it.
  - z500 11mo ago
    As an F# lover my heart sank at that "it turned out" at first. I'm glad someone got to live the dream somewhere haha
  - banashark 11mo ago
    I'm at my current company (actually writing mostly typescript and node services now) because of a YC "who's hiring" post that mentioned F# positions (bait and switch /s, but my experience lined up heavily with the team I ended up joining which didn't use F#).
- Xelbair 11mo ago
  Sure, but that's a 'need' from programmers side - not from business side.
bonesss 11mo ago
F# is less popular, but it’s a first class .Net language with full MS support and integration onto .Net (VM and ecosystem). C# has been tracking F# and aiming for language parity for years (ie all your modern C# devs should be learning the same language facilities). F# is multi-paradigm so C# devs can write idiomatic C# with minor forced changes. And as a .Net language you can always decompile it into C# and keep going from there. That’s a radically different proposition than, say, raw OCaml and not particularly niche. It also impacts hiring pools differently since competent functional C# devs are viable, but it tends to appeal to a certain calibre of dev. Moving faster with fewer errors and more talented candidate pool are relevant to repackaged SaaS startups too. Leaves more time for the other stuff and scales better.
- Xelbair 11mo ago
  don't get me wrong - i want F# features in C#! I like the ecosystem and both languages. I'm just pointing out that no matter how cool the language is if it doesn't serve business needs(hiring, onboarding ,ease of replacing staff, target market) it won't be picked.
  - deleted 11mo ago
    [deleted]
  - omcnoe 11mo ago
    I've worked with a lot of junior devs/graduates on a large F# project, in that context hiring/onboarding for F# hasn't at all been a limiting factor. Ultimately F# is not a particularly difficult language to learn.
- stiiv 11mo ago
  Last I knew, Rider was pretty much the only IDE available for a large codebase when you weren't on Windows. Much love for Ionide, but it was a serious struggle. Is this any better now?
  - aryonoco 11mo ago
    No still the same. VS Code with Ionide is okay but has many limitations for example in debugging or lack of support for F# fsi scripts. If you’re serious about F#, investing in Rider or Visual Studio makes a lot of sense. Having said that I wrote a Neo4J data extraction tool a few months ago and chose to write it in F#. At one point I observed how funny it was that I was developing in a Microsoft language and yet my dev workstation runs Fedora and my IDE comes from JetBrains and my code is running in kubernetes on a Linux cluster and there is not a sight of a windows machine in this whole pipeline. I remember the days when the language, linker, compiler, IDE, the GUI components, everything was tied together. If you wanted the next version of VB you had to buy the new version of Visual Studio!

by Xelbair 11mo ago

dude250711 11mo ago

It's good for, and I am not being sarcastic or snarky, justifying high pay and gate-keeping. Developers should set up more barriers for entry - look at doctors and lawyers.

stiiv 11mo ago
I think I agree with you. When I was part of a growing F# team a number of years ago, everyone we hired was an enthusiast who just loved coding in F# and wanted an opportunity to do it professionally. It turned out that this love, combined with the constraints of the language, led to a super-clean and legible code base. The quality was (in my estimation) outstanding, and I was sad to leave it.
- z500 11mo ago
  As an F# lover my heart sank at that "it turned out" at first. I'm glad someone got to live the dream somewhere haha
- banashark 11mo ago
  I'm at my current company (actually writing mostly typescript and node services now) because of a YC "who's hiring" post that mentioned F# positions (bait and switch /s, but my experience lined up heavily with the team I ended up joining which didn't use F#).
Xelbair 11mo ago
Sure, but that's a 'need' from programmers side - not from business side.

bonesss 11mo ago

F# is less popular, but it’s a first class .Net language with full MS support and integration onto .Net (VM and ecosystem). C# has been tracking F# and aiming for language parity for years (ie all your modern C# devs should be learning the same language facilities). F# is multi-paradigm so C# devs can write idiomatic C# with minor forced changes. And as a .Net language you can always decompile it into C# and keep going from there. That’s a radically different proposition than, say, raw OCaml and not particularly niche. It also impacts hiring pools differently since competent functional C# devs are viable, but it tends to appeal to a certain calibre of dev. Moving faster with fewer errors and more talented candidate pool are relevant to repackaged SaaS startups too. Leaves more time for the other stuff and scales better.

Xelbair 11mo ago
don't get me wrong - i want F# features in C#! I like the ecosystem and both languages. I'm just pointing out that no matter how cool the language is if it doesn't serve business needs(hiring, onboarding ,ease of replacing staff, target market) it won't be picked.
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]
- omcnoe 11mo ago
  I've worked with a lot of junior devs/graduates on a large F# project, in that context hiring/onboarding for F# hasn't at all been a limiting factor. Ultimately F# is not a particularly difficult language to learn.
stiiv 11mo ago
Last I knew, Rider was pretty much the only IDE available for a large codebase when you weren't on Windows. Much love for Ionide, but it was a serious struggle. Is this any better now?
- aryonoco 11mo ago
  No still the same. VS Code with Ionide is okay but has many limitations for example in debugging or lack of support for F# fsi scripts. If you’re serious about F#, investing in Rider or Visual Studio makes a lot of sense. Having said that I wrote a Neo4J data extraction tool a few months ago and chose to write it in F#. At one point I observed how funny it was that I was developing in a Microsoft language and yet my dev workstation runs Fedora and my IDE comes from JetBrains and my code is running in kubernetes on a Linux cluster and there is not a sight of a windows machine in this whole pipeline. I remember the days when the language, linker, compiler, IDE, the GUI components, everything was tied together. If you wanted the next version of VB you had to buy the new version of Visual Studio!