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There will be a time when people putting svastikas will be considered brave heroes. And then it'll be banned again. And then it'll resurface again. Turns out, "

There will be a time when people putting svastikas will be considered brave heroes. And then it'll be banned again. And then it'll resurface again. Turns out, "things that are obviously morally right" radically chances over time and across cultures.

poly2it 1y ago
> a time ... and a duality within the present forms of society in which either expression is interesting enough or leads up to a significant event such that we will remember it in the future. No time has been one-sided as in the way you put it.
komali2 1y ago
Just out of curiosity, what makes you think that everyone thought Naziism was morally right at its peak?
- HeinzStuckeIt 1y ago
  Several other European countries imitated German fascism in the 1930s (e.g. Hungary, Romania, Slovakia). This is well known in Eastern Europe because that brief period has cast long shadows to this day. Even in relatively faraway South America, Germany and Italy inspired several political movements. Sure, not everyone thought Naziism was good, because you can’t find any political philosophy in human history that everyone has the same opinion about. But it was still seen as a model by millions of people outside Germany until Germany started obviously losing the war.
  - wredcoll 1y ago
    Some people like naziism. Those people were wrong. This isn't some kind of "oh morality is relative and somethings are cultural", it's just objectively wrong, regardless of who or how many people claim to like it.
    - cindyllm 1y ago
      [dead]
    - HeinzStuckeIt 1y ago
      > Some people like naziism. Those people were wrong. In your individual opinion. In mine, too, and hopefully everyone else’s here. But the OP was clearly talking about what views are presented as “morally right” by normative social forces, and those clearly differ across time and place, often as political power waxes and wanes.
      - komali2 1y ago
        No but that's my point, the nazis had to march entire classes of people to death camps at gun point to be considered "normative," and even then there was a resistance movement not only in every occupied country but also Germany itself. The reality is a minority of people were willing to use extraordinary violence and propaganda to present their viewpoint as "normal," but I don't agree that that made it "normal" even for the times. And even now we see that the normalization of naziism is apparently impossible - I was incredibly cynical about the American right wing happily embracing naziism, but I guess I was partially wrong: there's a schism this week over popular American right wing media figures platforming the nazi Nick Fuentes.
        anal_reactor 1y ago
        > The reality is a minority of people were willing to use extraordinary violence and propaganda to present their viewpoint as "normal," but I don't agree that that made it "normal" even for the times. Before modernity, extraordinary violence and propaganda were, well, ordinary. Hitler just made that work on industrial scale, but the underlying moral ideas weren't anything new. During antiquity, people didn't mind slaughtering entire cities. Even more modern history is full shit like that, look up Mongol invasions. BTW don't you think that it's a little awkward that in modern times "pirates", which were people that'd literally kill seamen for profit, are considered a fun Halloween theme for children? I can imagine that in 500 years Nazi costumes will be similarly normalized.

poly2it 1y ago

> a time ... and a duality within the present forms of society in which either expression is interesting enough or leads up to a significant event such that we will remember it in the future. No time has been one-sided as in the way you put it.

komali2 1y ago

Just out of curiosity, what makes you think that everyone thought Naziism was morally right at its peak?

HeinzStuckeIt 1y ago
Several other European countries imitated German fascism in the 1930s (e.g. Hungary, Romania, Slovakia). This is well known in Eastern Europe because that brief period has cast long shadows to this day. Even in relatively faraway South America, Germany and Italy inspired several political movements. Sure, not everyone thought Naziism was good, because you can’t find any political philosophy in human history that everyone has the same opinion about. But it was still seen as a model by millions of people outside Germany until Germany started obviously losing the war.
- wredcoll 1y ago
  Some people like naziism. Those people were wrong. This isn't some kind of "oh morality is relative and somethings are cultural", it's just objectively wrong, regardless of who or how many people claim to like it.
  - cindyllm 1y ago
    [dead]
  - HeinzStuckeIt 1y ago
    > Some people like naziism. Those people were wrong. In your individual opinion. In mine, too, and hopefully everyone else’s here. But the OP was clearly talking about what views are presented as “morally right” by normative social forces, and those clearly differ across time and place, often as political power waxes and wanes.
    - komali2 1y ago
      No but that's my point, the nazis had to march entire classes of people to death camps at gun point to be considered "normative," and even then there was a resistance movement not only in every occupied country but also Germany itself. The reality is a minority of people were willing to use extraordinary violence and propaganda to present their viewpoint as "normal," but I don't agree that that made it "normal" even for the times. And even now we see that the normalization of naziism is apparently impossible - I was incredibly cynical about the American right wing happily embracing naziism, but I guess I was partially wrong: there's a schism this week over popular American right wing media figures platforming the nazi Nick Fuentes.
      - anal_reactor 1y ago
        > The reality is a minority of people were willing to use extraordinary violence and propaganda to present their viewpoint as "normal," but I don't agree that that made it "normal" even for the times. Before modernity, extraordinary violence and propaganda were, well, ordinary. Hitler just made that work on industrial scale, but the underlying moral ideas weren't anything new. During antiquity, people didn't mind slaughtering entire cities. Even more modern history is full shit like that, look up Mongol invasions. BTW don't you think that it's a little awkward that in modern times "pirates", which were people that'd literally kill seamen for profit, are considered a fun Halloween theme for children? I can imagine that in 500 years Nazi costumes will be similarly normalized.