5 ms·

I think it will be more along the lines with how they got rid of DOS. The command prompt still exists, it's just hidden away. You can't exit windows to dos like

I think it will be more along the lines with how they got rid of DOS. The command prompt still exists, it's just hidden away. You can't exit windows to dos like you used to be able to do. Same thing will happen with the desktop. Today on the Metro start screen the desktop has a first-row tile but I imagine eventually it will have no tile and you'll have to search for it. Effectively making it not exist for the common user. But Microsoft is still investing a lot of money in desktop software. Not user-facing software. But much of their code assumes more capabilities than what WinRT allows. All of the developer tools, for example. Think about a memory diagnostic tools, that is of course impossible in WinRT. Powershell is impossible in WinRT.

mbell 14y ago
> I think it will be more along the lines with how they got rid of DOS. The command prompt still exists, it's just hidden away. You can't exit windows to dos like you used to be able to do. DOS isn't a command prompt its an operating system. DOS wasn't 'hidden away' its gone. Windows 3.1 was really just a GUI running on top of MS-DOS. 95, 98, and ME used MS-DOS as a bootloader to get windows running, basically flipping the CPU into protected mode then handing it over to windows. The WinNT family wasn't built on top of DOS at all but rather has a standalone kernal. DOS programs were only supported by a virtual machine (and aren't supported at all in 64bit windows, DOS is completely gone there). I don't see much connection at all between DOS and Metro, Metro is just a UI.
- MatthewPhillips 14y ago
  Calm down, I understand all of that. My point is that they didn't take away the functionality of DOS, and it mostly exists to this day. Even the default Visual Studio project is a command line program (last time I checked). I see the same future for the desktop.
  - homosaur 14y ago
    By that analogy, only Microsoft blessed developers could make desktop apps and all others who wanted to distribute independently will be forced to use the command line.
  - facorreia 14y ago
    You seem to still be confusing the command prompt and console applications with the MS-DOS operating system. The applications that can be executed inside the Windows command-line prompt are Windows applications, not DOS applications.
    - MatthewPhillips 14y ago
      I'm not confused about that, it just wasn't my point. My point was the tool still existed past the introduction of the Windows GUI interface. I can still run commands that have the same API as the DOS commands, I can still pipe together commands, I can still redirect commands. I foresee that, in the same way, the ability to use the desktop for things that are not allowed in Metro; like examining memory, will keep going on for an indefinite period of time. Whether that future desktop is compatible with the one we have today is, again, not the point I'm making.
      - mbell 14y ago
        > I can still run commands that have the same API as the DOS commands, I can still pipe together commands, I can still redirect commands. What you seem to continue to not understand is that this functionality is not provided by DOS. Its provided by a command line interpreter. In windows this is cmd.exe which _is not_ DOS. It shares some syntax with the MS-DOS command line interpreter which is command.com but there are also differences in the same way there are differences between zsh and bash. For comparison I wouldn't call 'bash' 'linux' as that makes no sense. Bash after all, can run on a number of operating systems. To make an analogy to what your saying, when I open iTerm+bash on a Mac I guess I should say 'opening linux' which is obviously wrong. Before you say cmd.exe is only a DOS thing, its not it was also used in OS/2 as the default command line interpreter. As for the functionality (I assume to mean at this point: a command line interface) being deprecated. In fact MS has been pushing PowerShell strongly as its new command line interface. You don't generally create new and improved versions of deprecated functionality. If you want to make an argument for the reduced usage of the command line, fine. But, there is no mention of DOS needed to make that argument.
        14y ago
  - mbell 14y ago
    > My point is that they didn't take away the functionality of DOS They took all of it away. (thankfully, it was a complete mess). > Even the default Visual Studio project is a command line program (last time I checked). 'DOS' and 'command line' are not the same thing, at all, not even remotely. Your literally comparing trading one UI for another to trading one UI for an OS. That makes no sense at all.
    - MatthewPhillips 14y ago
      That's not what I'm comparing. I'm comparing one deprecated functionality to another deprecated functionality. The fact that the former lingered on leads me to believe that the latter will also.
    - Flemlord 14y ago
      How is the command line different from DOS? I can still run non-trivial DOS programs from the command line (e.g. Alpha Centauri).
      - mbell 14y ago
        Unless your on an old version of windows or have installed a DOS emulator you are not running DOS programs. Alpha Centauri for example has been updated several times and includes a windows application now. Starting a program from the command line has nothing to do with whether its a windows or dos program.
        andrewf 14y ago
        Windows 7 32-bit (not 64-bit) still includes the DOS API implementation descended from the original in Windows NT. Open up cmd.exe. Now run "edit". That's a 16-bit DOS program. You won't be able to find it in the Windows task manager - it's 'inside' ntvdm.exe. More: run COMMAND.COM (not cmd.exe). You're now running the DOS command line, instead of cmd.exe's Win32 command line. It patches over some features, but not others, using the DOS Long File Name API. So "DIR" will list long file names, but you can't "cd \windows\serviceprofiles". You can "cd \windows\servic~1".
abrowne 14y ago
A visual version of a similar analogy: http://ignorethecode.net/blog/2012/09/09/progress/ http://ignorethecode.net/blog/2012/09/09/progress/

mbell 14y ago

> I think it will be more along the lines with how they got rid of DOS. The command prompt still exists, it's just hidden away. You can't exit windows to dos like you used to be able to do. DOS isn't a command prompt its an operating system. DOS wasn't 'hidden away' its gone. Windows 3.1 was really just a GUI running on top of MS-DOS. 95, 98, and ME used MS-DOS as a bootloader to get windows running, basically flipping the CPU into protected mode then handing it over to windows. The WinNT family wasn't built on top of DOS at all but rather has a standalone kernal. DOS programs were only supported by a virtual machine (and aren't supported at all in 64bit windows, DOS is completely gone there). I don't see much connection at all between DOS and Metro, Metro is just a UI.

MatthewPhillips 14y ago
Calm down, I understand all of that. My point is that they didn't take away the functionality of DOS, and it mostly exists to this day. Even the default Visual Studio project is a command line program (last time I checked). I see the same future for the desktop.
- homosaur 14y ago
  By that analogy, only Microsoft blessed developers could make desktop apps and all others who wanted to distribute independently will be forced to use the command line.
- facorreia 14y ago
  You seem to still be confusing the command prompt and console applications with the MS-DOS operating system. The applications that can be executed inside the Windows command-line prompt are Windows applications, not DOS applications.
  - MatthewPhillips 14y ago
    I'm not confused about that, it just wasn't my point. My point was the tool still existed past the introduction of the Windows GUI interface. I can still run commands that have the same API as the DOS commands, I can still pipe together commands, I can still redirect commands. I foresee that, in the same way, the ability to use the desktop for things that are not allowed in Metro; like examining memory, will keep going on for an indefinite period of time. Whether that future desktop is compatible with the one we have today is, again, not the point I'm making.
    - mbell 14y ago
      > I can still run commands that have the same API as the DOS commands, I can still pipe together commands, I can still redirect commands. What you seem to continue to not understand is that this functionality is not provided by DOS. Its provided by a command line interpreter. In windows this is cmd.exe which _is not_ DOS. It shares some syntax with the MS-DOS command line interpreter which is command.com but there are also differences in the same way there are differences between zsh and bash. For comparison I wouldn't call 'bash' 'linux' as that makes no sense. Bash after all, can run on a number of operating systems. To make an analogy to what your saying, when I open iTerm+bash on a Mac I guess I should say 'opening linux' which is obviously wrong. Before you say cmd.exe is only a DOS thing, its not it was also used in OS/2 as the default command line interpreter. As for the functionality (I assume to mean at this point: a command line interface) being deprecated. In fact MS has been pushing PowerShell strongly as its new command line interface. You don't generally create new and improved versions of deprecated functionality. If you want to make an argument for the reduced usage of the command line, fine. But, there is no mention of DOS needed to make that argument.
      - 14y ago
- mbell 14y ago
  > My point is that they didn't take away the functionality of DOS They took all of it away. (thankfully, it was a complete mess). > Even the default Visual Studio project is a command line program (last time I checked). 'DOS' and 'command line' are not the same thing, at all, not even remotely. Your literally comparing trading one UI for another to trading one UI for an OS. That makes no sense at all.
  - MatthewPhillips 14y ago
    That's not what I'm comparing. I'm comparing one deprecated functionality to another deprecated functionality. The fact that the former lingered on leads me to believe that the latter will also.
  - Flemlord 14y ago
    How is the command line different from DOS? I can still run non-trivial DOS programs from the command line (e.g. Alpha Centauri).
    - mbell 14y ago
      Unless your on an old version of windows or have installed a DOS emulator you are not running DOS programs. Alpha Centauri for example has been updated several times and includes a windows application now. Starting a program from the command line has nothing to do with whether its a windows or dos program.
      - andrewf 14y ago
        Windows 7 32-bit (not 64-bit) still includes the DOS API implementation descended from the original in Windows NT. Open up cmd.exe. Now run "edit". That's a 16-bit DOS program. You won't be able to find it in the Windows task manager - it's 'inside' ntvdm.exe. More: run COMMAND.COM (not cmd.exe). You're now running the DOS command line, instead of cmd.exe's Win32 command line. It patches over some features, but not others, using the DOS Long File Name API. So "DIR" will list long file names, but you can't "cd \windows\serviceprofiles". You can "cd \windows\servic~1".

abrowne 14y ago

A visual version of a similar analogy: http://ignorethecode.net/blog/2012/09/09/progress/ http://ignorethecode.net/blog/2012/09/09/progress/