3 ms·

This is a tough one for the HN crowd. It's like that man not sure which button to push meme. 1) RIAA is evil for enforcing copyrights on lyrics? 2) OpenAI is

This is a tough one for the HN crowd. It's like that man not sure which button to push meme. 1) RIAA is evil for enforcing copyrights on lyrics? 2) OpenAI is evil for training on lyrics?

maximilianburke 11mo ago
I think you mean the RIAA RAII is a different kind of (necessary) evil
- EnPissant 11mo ago
  Indeed, too much C++. Edited.
slaymaker1907 11mo ago
Why not both? As the GP mentioned, lyrics are also invaluable for people besides training for AI.
- nomel 11mo ago
  I think the perceived lack-of-value for them is related to how easy it is to write lyrics down, compared to any other aspect of the music. Anyone can do it within the time of the song, usually first try. Any other aspect of the song cant't just be written down from ear (yes, including the sheet music, which isn't nearly expressive enough to reproduce a performance*). *There are some funny "play from sheet music without knowing the song" type videos out there, with funny results. YouTube/google search is no longe usable, so I can't find any.
deleted 11mo ago
[deleted]
raverbashing 11mo ago
Actually in Germany it's GEMA
briandear 11mo ago
Very true. Just the other day, another “copyright is bad” post on the front page. Today its copyright is good because otherwise people might get some use of material in LLMs. Considering this is hacker news, it seems to be such an odd dichotomy. Sometimes it feels like anti-hacker news. The halcyon days of 2010 after long gone. Now we need to apparently be angry at all tech. LLMs are amazing and I wish they could train on anything and everything. LLMs are the smartphone to the fax machines of Google search.
- gruez 11mo ago
  Sounds like it was never about copyright as a principle, only symbolic politics (ie. copyrights benefit megacorps? copyright needs to be weaker! copyright hurts megacorps? copyright needs to be stronger!)
- cycomanic 11mo ago
  > Very true. Just the other day, another “copyright is bad” post on the front page. Today its copyright is good because otherwise people might get some use of material in LLMs. > > Considering this is hacker news, it seems to be such an odd dichotomy. Sometimes it feels like anti-hacker news. The halcyon days of 2010 after long gone. Now we need to apparently be angry at all tech. > > LLMs are amazing and I wish they could train on anything and everything. LLMs are the smartphone to the fax machines of Google search. Sorry this such a (purposefully?) naive take. In reality the thoughts are much more nuanced. For one open source/free software doesn't exist without copyright. Then there is the whole issue that these companies use vast amount of copyrighted material to train their models, arguing that all this is fair use. But on the other hand they lock their models behind walls, disallow training on them, keep the training methods and data selection secret... This tends to be what people disagree with. It feels very much different rules for thee and me. Just imagine how outraged Sam Altman would act if someone leaked the code for Gpt5 and all the training scripts. If we agree that copyright does not apply to llms, then it should also not apply to llms and they should be required to release all their models and the way of training them.
  - Ea-Nasir 11mo ago
tharne 11mo ago
I know nuance takes the fun out of most online discussions, but there's a qualitative difference between a bunch of college kids downloading mp3's on a torrent site and a $500 billion company who's goal among other things is to become the primary access point to all things digital.
- EnPissant 11mo ago
  Should young adults be allowed to violate copyright and no one else? The damages caused seem far worse than an LLM being able to reproduce song lyrics. Is it simply "we like college kids" and "we hate OpenAI"? that dictates this? I'm ready, hit me with the nuance.
  - therouwboat 11mo ago
    What damages? You can learn lyrics by listening the song.
    - EnPissant 11mo ago
      Sounds like you agree with me.
    - shermantanktop 11mo ago
      Sometimes, sometimes not. https://www.kissthisguy.com/ https://www.kissthisguy.com/
      - shagie 11mo ago
        I'm still trying to work out the lyrics to Prisencolinensinainciusol. https://youtu.be/fU-wH8SrFro https://youtu.be/fU-wH8SrFro ... Alright?
  - shakna 11mo ago
    A young adult who pirates, is also more likely to make purchases in that industry, and has an impact that is limited. A corporation who pirates, is more likely to pirate en masse everything that they can get their hands on, in an ongoing manner, and throw everything they can at contesting their right to do so in court.
delecti 11mo ago
3) Some types of data are more ethical to train on than others. Training on Wikipedia? Cool! Training on pirated copies of books? Not cool! Training on lyrics? IMO that's on the "cool" side of the line, because the "product" is not the words, it's the composition and mastered song.

This is a tough one for the HN crowd. It's like that man not sure which button to push meme. 1) RIAA is evil for enforcing copyrights on lyrics? 2) OpenAI is evil for training on lyrics?

maximilianburke 11mo ago

I think you mean the RIAA RAII is a different kind of (necessary) evil

EnPissant 11mo ago
Indeed, too much C++. Edited.

slaymaker1907 11mo ago

Why not both? As the GP mentioned, lyrics are also invaluable for people besides training for AI.

nomel 11mo ago
I think the perceived lack-of-value for them is related to how easy it is to write lyrics down, compared to any other aspect of the music. Anyone can do it within the time of the song, usually first try. Any other aspect of the song cant't just be written down from ear (yes, including the sheet music, which isn't nearly expressive enough to reproduce a performance*). *There are some funny "play from sheet music without knowing the song" type videos out there, with funny results. YouTube/google search is no longe usable, so I can't find any.

deleted 11mo ago

[deleted]

raverbashing 11mo ago

Actually in Germany it's GEMA

briandear 11mo ago

Very true. Just the other day, another “copyright is bad” post on the front page. Today its copyright is good because otherwise people might get some use of material in LLMs. Considering this is hacker news, it seems to be such an odd dichotomy. Sometimes it feels like anti-hacker news. The halcyon days of 2010 after long gone. Now we need to apparently be angry at all tech. LLMs are amazing and I wish they could train on anything and everything. LLMs are the smartphone to the fax machines of Google search.

gruez 11mo ago
Sounds like it was never about copyright as a principle, only symbolic politics (ie. copyrights benefit megacorps? copyright needs to be weaker! copyright hurts megacorps? copyright needs to be stronger!)
cycomanic 11mo ago
> Very true. Just the other day, another “copyright is bad” post on the front page. Today its copyright is good because otherwise people might get some use of material in LLMs. > > Considering this is hacker news, it seems to be such an odd dichotomy. Sometimes it feels like anti-hacker news. The halcyon days of 2010 after long gone. Now we need to apparently be angry at all tech. > > LLMs are amazing and I wish they could train on anything and everything. LLMs are the smartphone to the fax machines of Google search. Sorry this such a (purposefully?) naive take. In reality the thoughts are much more nuanced. For one open source/free software doesn't exist without copyright. Then there is the whole issue that these companies use vast amount of copyrighted material to train their models, arguing that all this is fair use. But on the other hand they lock their models behind walls, disallow training on them, keep the training methods and data selection secret... This tends to be what people disagree with. It feels very much different rules for thee and me. Just imagine how outraged Sam Altman would act if someone leaked the code for Gpt5 and all the training scripts. If we agree that copyright does not apply to llms, then it should also not apply to llms and they should be required to release all their models and the way of training them.
- Ea-Nasir 11mo ago

tharne 11mo ago

I know nuance takes the fun out of most online discussions, but there's a qualitative difference between a bunch of college kids downloading mp3's on a torrent site and a $500 billion company who's goal among other things is to become the primary access point to all things digital.

EnPissant 11mo ago
Should young adults be allowed to violate copyright and no one else? The damages caused seem far worse than an LLM being able to reproduce song lyrics. Is it simply "we like college kids" and "we hate OpenAI"? that dictates this? I'm ready, hit me with the nuance.
- therouwboat 11mo ago
  What damages? You can learn lyrics by listening the song.
  - EnPissant 11mo ago
    Sounds like you agree with me.
  - shermantanktop 11mo ago
    Sometimes, sometimes not. https://www.kissthisguy.com/ https://www.kissthisguy.com/
    - shagie 11mo ago
      I'm still trying to work out the lyrics to Prisencolinensinainciusol. https://youtu.be/fU-wH8SrFro https://youtu.be/fU-wH8SrFro ... Alright?
- shakna 11mo ago
  A young adult who pirates, is also more likely to make purchases in that industry, and has an impact that is limited. A corporation who pirates, is more likely to pirate en masse everything that they can get their hands on, in an ongoing manner, and throw everything they can at contesting their right to do so in court.

delecti 11mo ago

3) Some types of data are more ethical to train on than others. Training on Wikipedia? Cool! Training on pirated copies of books? Not cool! Training on lyrics? IMO that's on the "cool" side of the line, because the "product" is not the words, it's the composition and mastered song.