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That depends on your definition of systems programming. Go and java are not fit for low level OS or embedded development. They are too memory hungry. A lot of s

That depends on your definition of systems programming. Go and java are not fit for low level OS or embedded development. They are too memory hungry. A lot of software runs on hardware other than servers. iot, auto, tvs, phones, watches, etc all have much tighter requirements on acceptable software overhead from languages employed. Also, the more memory and CPU you use in systems layers, the less that is available for higher level layers, which are often written in higher level languages and desire the majority of the devices resources.

eptcyka 1y ago
There are entire kernels and userlands written in go that are used in production today, in rather constrained environments no less. Technically sim cards run a kind of Java derivative too. I dislike both languages but that doesn’t mean they can’t be used to build foundational systems.
- surajrmal 1y ago
  I'm aware of java being used for embedded, but that wasn't really proper java and it requires specialized hardware. You can't just expect to run java on an arm microcontroller and expect it to work out. I'm curious to learn more about production quality golang kernels. I've never heard about this before. Personally, if a language doesn't give you the flexibility required to run it on microcontroller grade hardware, I find it difficult to ascribe it systems programming language status. Anything with a large runtime makes that difficult without some sort of hardware assistance to offload the runtime (eg javacard).
  - pjmlp 1y ago
    Here, https://www.withsecure.com/pt/solutions/innovative-security-hardware/usb-armory https://www.withsecure.com/pt/solutions/innovative-security-... Firmware is written in TamaGo. PTC and Aicas JVMs and AOT compilers are proper Java, there is nothing on the standard regarding what kind of GC or real time constraints are required. Additionally, real time Java is an industry standard.
fulafel 1y ago
Sure, those languages are not suited for all systems programming tasks. Just like application programming languages are typically not suited for every kind of application, or database management systems are not suitable for any kind of database. But there isn't a big disagreement about terminology in the field I think. And of course Go was launched specifically as a systems programming language.
pjmlp 1y ago
There are commercial embedded systems being sold in Go and Java, should I keep giving the examples of PTC, Aicas, TamaGo?

eptcyka 1y ago

There are entire kernels and userlands written in go that are used in production today, in rather constrained environments no less. Technically sim cards run a kind of Java derivative too. I dislike both languages but that doesn’t mean they can’t be used to build foundational systems.

surajrmal 1y ago
I'm aware of java being used for embedded, but that wasn't really proper java and it requires specialized hardware. You can't just expect to run java on an arm microcontroller and expect it to work out. I'm curious to learn more about production quality golang kernels. I've never heard about this before. Personally, if a language doesn't give you the flexibility required to run it on microcontroller grade hardware, I find it difficult to ascribe it systems programming language status. Anything with a large runtime makes that difficult without some sort of hardware assistance to offload the runtime (eg javacard).
- pjmlp 1y ago
  Here, https://www.withsecure.com/pt/solutions/innovative-security-hardware/usb-armory https://www.withsecure.com/pt/solutions/innovative-security-... Firmware is written in TamaGo. PTC and Aicas JVMs and AOT compilers are proper Java, there is nothing on the standard regarding what kind of GC or real time constraints are required. Additionally, real time Java is an industry standard.

fulafel 1y ago

Sure, those languages are not suited for all systems programming tasks. Just like application programming languages are typically not suited for every kind of application, or database management systems are not suitable for any kind of database. But there isn't a big disagreement about terminology in the field I think. And of course Go was launched specifically as a systems programming language.

pjmlp 1y ago

There are commercial embedded systems being sold in Go and Java, should I keep giving the examples of PTC, Aicas, TamaGo?