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The example of Seattle Police dashcam and body camera footage may be interesting. When those things were relatively new, ten years ago or so, someone started fi

by wrs 1y ago

The example of Seattle Police dashcam and body camera footage may be interesting. When those things were relatively new, ten years ago or so, someone started filing daily public records requests for footage from all 911 dispatches (among other things). They wanted to build their own database of the theoretically public footage. The SPD complained that the overhead of redacting all that footage would be impossible. Eventually the legislature clarified the status and tightened the request rules, so now you have to request footage for a specific incident, and you may have to pay a redaction fee. [0] [0] https://mrsc.org/explore-topics/public-records/law-enforcement/video-footage https://mrsc.org/explore-topics/public-records/law-enforceme...

mulmen 1y ago
I think someone even tried automating the redactions then posting to YouTube. It’s an interesting case that pits privacy against transparency. I absolutely want the cops to wear bodycams and I’d prefer they can’t even turn them off. But they also need to protect the privacy of victims, suspects, and witnesses. So they can’t just live stream to the Internet either. How much is the redaction fee? How much would it cost to just pay it for everything?
- alexpotato 1y ago
  As another data point/example: Florida is a "sunshine state" [0] when it comes to public records which is why it's legal: - to have mugshots and arrest records posted online - which in turn leads to "attractive felon" style websites where mugshots are rated. I'm generally for more privacy while at the same time getting why people push for transparency. Either way you get downstream and often unintended consequences. 0 - https://www.myfloridalegal.com/open-government/the-quotsunshinequot-law https://www.myfloridalegal.com/open-government/the-quotsunsh...
  - mulmen 1y ago
    This is also the source of the Florida Man meme right? Florida's transparency makes it look like a state full of criminals.
mikkupikku 1y ago
Redactions are necessary to protect innocent members of the public. Going through all the footage from every officer every single day to perform these redactions would require a huge amount of manpower. That may change with new technology, but until it can be automated reliably, the WA legislature got this right. With shit like traffic cameras, I don't think redactions are necessary, although it would be nice if all license plates were automatically redacted and only accessible with a warrant. Turning the cameras off is an even better idea.
- beefnugs 1y ago
  NO, the fact that you are hitting scalability problems to do a whole bunch of redacting is a solid indicator that this is going too far on surveillance data. The only indicator that it was done right, is that the redactions are happening in real time at the camera, only the list of license plates that have full warrant cleared authority for should be leaving the camera itself. (or full car description: color, make, model, scratches, time of day) Otherwise there is a private company with a bunch of extra-legal tracking information they will monetize utterly illegally
  - mikkupikku 1y ago
    The scaling problem of redacting video only applies to body cameras and I think they definitely aren't "going too far". Body cameras have greatly benefited society. The processes effectively restricting the rate at which you can file FOIA requests are entirely reasonable given the need to redact things to protect innocent people.
- sixothree 1y ago
  > Redactions are necessary to protect innocent members of the public If these controls don't exist inside the organization, they shouldn't exist for the public either.
  - michaelt 1y ago
    I think it would generally be a good thing for cops kicking down doors to have working body cameras; the state's monopoly on violence is easily abused, and should be carefully monitored. But if the cops get the wrong address for their no-knock warrant, kick down my door, and find me jerking off in my bedroom - I would prefer the footage not be made public.
reaperducer 1y ago
ten years ago or so, someone started filing daily public records requests for footage from all 911 dispatches (among other things). I know someone who until very recently worked for a major city's police department. He said there were people who would request every video they could think of, and it was his team's job to scrub through the video and blur/block out faces of children and things like that. He said his team was absolutely overwhelmed with requests from randos all over the country requesting things in bulk. Even if his team (~10 people, full-time) didn't take the extra step to redact some images, they simply couldn't keep up with it. Essentially, a FOIA DDOS. The stress was too much, and he left for a different career. (Before anyone asks if the PD imposed a fee for video, I don't know. It's possible the fee wasn't high enough, or maybe there's a state law regulating the fee. But I'm not sure it matters since there are plenty of cranks in the world with very deep pockets.)
- chaps 1y ago
  If it's a major city, why isn't their FOIA team larger? Signed: A frequent requester.
  - reaperducer 1y ago
    It is a very major city. The vast majority of people on the planet have heard of it. I can only speculate that it wants to put more cops on the street, instead of paying civilians to do paperwork. The real world isn't like TV. Like everyone else, police departments have to work within a budget. People don't just magically appear from off-screen to do more work.
    - chaps 1y ago
      You are so, so close.
- hyperliner 1y ago
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by wrs 1y ago

mulmen 1y ago

I think someone even tried automating the redactions then posting to YouTube. It’s an interesting case that pits privacy against transparency. I absolutely want the cops to wear bodycams and I’d prefer they can’t even turn them off. But they also need to protect the privacy of victims, suspects, and witnesses. So they can’t just live stream to the Internet either. How much is the redaction fee? How much would it cost to just pay it for everything?

alexpotato 1y ago
As another data point/example: Florida is a "sunshine state" [0] when it comes to public records which is why it's legal: - to have mugshots and arrest records posted online - which in turn leads to "attractive felon" style websites where mugshots are rated. I'm generally for more privacy while at the same time getting why people push for transparency. Either way you get downstream and often unintended consequences. 0 - https://www.myfloridalegal.com/open-government/the-quotsunshinequot-law https://www.myfloridalegal.com/open-government/the-quotsunsh...
- mulmen 1y ago
  This is also the source of the Florida Man meme right? Florida's transparency makes it look like a state full of criminals.

mikkupikku 1y ago

Redactions are necessary to protect innocent members of the public. Going through all the footage from every officer every single day to perform these redactions would require a huge amount of manpower. That may change with new technology, but until it can be automated reliably, the WA legislature got this right. With shit like traffic cameras, I don't think redactions are necessary, although it would be nice if all license plates were automatically redacted and only accessible with a warrant. Turning the cameras off is an even better idea.

beefnugs 1y ago
NO, the fact that you are hitting scalability problems to do a whole bunch of redacting is a solid indicator that this is going too far on surveillance data. The only indicator that it was done right, is that the redactions are happening in real time at the camera, only the list of license plates that have full warrant cleared authority for should be leaving the camera itself. (or full car description: color, make, model, scratches, time of day) Otherwise there is a private company with a bunch of extra-legal tracking information they will monetize utterly illegally
- mikkupikku 1y ago
  The scaling problem of redacting video only applies to body cameras and I think they definitely aren't "going too far". Body cameras have greatly benefited society. The processes effectively restricting the rate at which you can file FOIA requests are entirely reasonable given the need to redact things to protect innocent people.
sixothree 1y ago
> Redactions are necessary to protect innocent members of the public If these controls don't exist inside the organization, they shouldn't exist for the public either.
- michaelt 1y ago
  I think it would generally be a good thing for cops kicking down doors to have working body cameras; the state's monopoly on violence is easily abused, and should be carefully monitored. But if the cops get the wrong address for their no-knock warrant, kick down my door, and find me jerking off in my bedroom - I would prefer the footage not be made public.

reaperducer 1y ago

ten years ago or so, someone started filing daily public records requests for footage from all 911 dispatches (among other things). I know someone who until very recently worked for a major city's police department. He said there were people who would request every video they could think of, and it was his team's job to scrub through the video and blur/block out faces of children and things like that. He said his team was absolutely overwhelmed with requests from randos all over the country requesting things in bulk. Even if his team (~10 people, full-time) didn't take the extra step to redact some images, they simply couldn't keep up with it. Essentially, a FOIA DDOS. The stress was too much, and he left for a different career. (Before anyone asks if the PD imposed a fee for video, I don't know. It's possible the fee wasn't high enough, or maybe there's a state law regulating the fee. But I'm not sure it matters since there are plenty of cranks in the world with very deep pockets.)

chaps 1y ago
If it's a major city, why isn't their FOIA team larger? Signed: A frequent requester.
- reaperducer 1y ago
  It is a very major city. The vast majority of people on the planet have heard of it. I can only speculate that it wants to put more cops on the street, instead of paying civilians to do paperwork. The real world isn't like TV. Like everyone else, police departments have to work within a budget. People don't just magically appear from off-screen to do more work.
  - chaps 1y ago
    You are so, so close.
hyperliner 1y ago
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