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I resent the implication that us being separate countries is a "historical quirk." It's condescending at best and exemplifies why we feel increasingly distant f

I resent the implication that us being separate countries is a "historical quirk." It's condescending at best and exemplifies why we feel increasingly distant from the US. It's like saying that Belgium and the Netherlands, or Spain and Portugal, or Germany and Switzerland are one historical quirk away from being the same countries.

jvanderbot 11mo ago
I mean, it's entirely possible that a historic quirk 300+ years ago leads to an increasingly distant relationship today. It's definitely possible to intepret this the way Russia speaks about Ukraine - "They shouldn't even be a country *except for a historical quirk", but a charitable interpretation would be more along the lines of "things could have gone slightly differently and we'd be countrymen, but instead we brothers from a different mother (country)".
- _verandaguy 11mo ago
  After this past year of US political discourse, you'll forgive me for not extending the benefit of the doubt anymore.
  - jvanderbot 11mo ago
    That is understandable but also unfortunate. Sorry from our side of the 49th
- tokai 11mo ago
  No need to interpret. The exact same line colechristensen wrote has been used by Russias about Ukraine many times.
JuniperMesos 11mo ago
> It's like saying that Belgium and the Netherlands, or Spain and Portugal, or Germany and Switzerland are one historical quirk away from being the same countries. I think you could say this about any of those countries, although Switzerland's mountainous location means that it would always resist being part of a larger polity.
- potato3732842 11mo ago
  > means that it would always resist being part of a larger polity. More like it can resist in a more cost effective way and that subjugating them is worth less.
mmooss 11mo ago
It also reprises one of Russia's claims to Ukraine, and that of many other expansionist dictators through history. Maybe the US should be part of Canada?
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]
Maxatar 11mo ago
>It's condescending at best and exemplifies why we feel increasingly distant from the US. As a Canadian, why would it be condescending to suggest that at some point in the distant past, Canada and the U.S. could have been a single country had history played out slightly differently? There is nothing offensive about it, if anything the fact that it's a claim about a historical matter only highlights how the two countries have evolved separately and independently. Furthermore your other points are kind of bizzare. Spain and Portugal could absolutely have been a single country, and in fact they were under the Iberian Union. There are numerous other instances where the two countries came close to unifying. The historical possibility of a unified Belgium and the Netherlands is even stronger since those two countries had been unified twice. Germany and Switzerland however is a long shot, but at any rate I don't think anyone from Belgium, the Netherlands, Spain or Portugal would take offense or find it condescending that some historical event could have gone differently and reshaped all of Europe... taking offense to that suggestion as a Canadian, even during these times seems overly insecure and I don't think it's a sentiment shared by most of us.
- _verandaguy 11mo ago
  It's condescending to describe it as a quirk, in the sense that it's no more a quirk than anything else in history. In the current climate where this sort of rhetoric has been publicly and visibly used by Russia to justify their invasion of Ukraine, and by the PRC to justify their ongoing pressure campaigns against the ROC, I also don't take this kind of wording at face value. Wars were fought. People died, generations were involved in discourse about national identity and where borders should be drawn. The US and Canada were both at one point British properties, so by some definitions, we also used to be unified. Then we weren't. Is it insecure? Maybe. The reality is that in a shooting war, we wouldn't last very long against the US, in all likelihood. Under these conditions, the least I can do is to push back against rhetoric that undermines our legitimacy as our own country.
- tiagod 11mo ago
  Although I don't deny it could've happened, Spain and Portugal were different kingdoms during the Iberian Union (Philip II of Spain was known as Philip I of Portugal.)
kakacik 11mo ago
I've heard the same rhetoric (we're brothers, all will be fine) from many russians days before 2022 star of proper war in Ukraine. This feeling sadly means nothing in large enough scale.
tick_tock_tick 11mo ago
> I resent the implication that us being separate countries is a "historical quirk." It's condescending at best and exemplifies why we feel increasingly distant from the US. I mean that's a bit of an exaggeration. Canadians are basically Americans for all practical purpose to the degree you can barely tell them apart. It doesn't help that Canada has lacked any real national identity other then listing the few minor differences between it and the USA for decades.
- xyzzy_plugh 11mo ago
  > Canadians are basically Americans for all practical purpose to the degree you can barely tell them apart. It doesn't help that Canada has lacked any real national identity other then listing the few minor differences between it and the USA for decades. Why does this even mean? Does national identity even really matter? It's like saying Californians are basically Texans for all practical purpose. Men and women are pretty similar. To suggest that they're so similar they may as well be the same is absolutely condescending.
  - deleted 11mo ago
    [deleted]
  - tick_tock_tick 11mo ago
    > Does national identity even really matter? In the context of this whole article aka getting people to join the military it 100% matters. Do you think people are going to fight and die for a concept they don't care about?
colechristensen 11mo ago
You are the one making the assumption that I meant Canada should be controlled by the US when I meant and wrote no such thing. And Europe _absolutely_ should unite under a single government instead of this pseudo national semi-single-currency/market with a vague poorly representative European government designed mostly just to dance around the fact that these small states are stuck on archaic nationalist ideas and can't get along with a unified purpose. The world needs the strength a unified Europe could provide to counteract Russian aggression, the growth of Chinese power, and the crumbling cornerstone of world order the US is going through. Being offended is strange.
dboreham 11mo ago
Those are examples not counterexamples.

jvanderbot 11mo ago

I mean, it's entirely possible that a historic quirk 300+ years ago leads to an increasingly distant relationship today. It's definitely possible to intepret this the way Russia speaks about Ukraine - "They shouldn't even be a country *except for a historical quirk", but a charitable interpretation would be more along the lines of "things could have gone slightly differently and we'd be countrymen, but instead we brothers from a different mother (country)".

_verandaguy 11mo ago
After this past year of US political discourse, you'll forgive me for not extending the benefit of the doubt anymore.
- jvanderbot 11mo ago
  That is understandable but also unfortunate. Sorry from our side of the 49th
tokai 11mo ago
No need to interpret. The exact same line colechristensen wrote has been used by Russias about Ukraine many times.

JuniperMesos 11mo ago

> It's like saying that Belgium and the Netherlands, or Spain and Portugal, or Germany and Switzerland are one historical quirk away from being the same countries. I think you could say this about any of those countries, although Switzerland's mountainous location means that it would always resist being part of a larger polity.

potato3732842 11mo ago
> means that it would always resist being part of a larger polity. More like it can resist in a more cost effective way and that subjugating them is worth less.

mmooss 11mo ago

It also reprises one of Russia's claims to Ukraine, and that of many other expansionist dictators through history. Maybe the US should be part of Canada?

deleted 11mo ago
[deleted]

Maxatar 11mo ago

>It's condescending at best and exemplifies why we feel increasingly distant from the US. As a Canadian, why would it be condescending to suggest that at some point in the distant past, Canada and the U.S. could have been a single country had history played out slightly differently? There is nothing offensive about it, if anything the fact that it's a claim about a historical matter only highlights how the two countries have evolved separately and independently. Furthermore your other points are kind of bizzare. Spain and Portugal could absolutely have been a single country, and in fact they were under the Iberian Union. There are numerous other instances where the two countries came close to unifying. The historical possibility of a unified Belgium and the Netherlands is even stronger since those two countries had been unified twice. Germany and Switzerland however is a long shot, but at any rate I don't think anyone from Belgium, the Netherlands, Spain or Portugal would take offense or find it condescending that some historical event could have gone differently and reshaped all of Europe... taking offense to that suggestion as a Canadian, even during these times seems overly insecure and I don't think it's a sentiment shared by most of us.

_verandaguy 11mo ago
It's condescending to describe it as a quirk, in the sense that it's no more a quirk than anything else in history. In the current climate where this sort of rhetoric has been publicly and visibly used by Russia to justify their invasion of Ukraine, and by the PRC to justify their ongoing pressure campaigns against the ROC, I also don't take this kind of wording at face value. Wars were fought. People died, generations were involved in discourse about national identity and where borders should be drawn. The US and Canada were both at one point British properties, so by some definitions, we also used to be unified. Then we weren't. Is it insecure? Maybe. The reality is that in a shooting war, we wouldn't last very long against the US, in all likelihood. Under these conditions, the least I can do is to push back against rhetoric that undermines our legitimacy as our own country.
tiagod 11mo ago
Although I don't deny it could've happened, Spain and Portugal were different kingdoms during the Iberian Union (Philip II of Spain was known as Philip I of Portugal.)

kakacik 11mo ago

I've heard the same rhetoric (we're brothers, all will be fine) from many russians days before 2022 star of proper war in Ukraine. This feeling sadly means nothing in large enough scale.

tick_tock_tick 11mo ago

> I resent the implication that us being separate countries is a "historical quirk." It's condescending at best and exemplifies why we feel increasingly distant from the US. I mean that's a bit of an exaggeration. Canadians are basically Americans for all practical purpose to the degree you can barely tell them apart. It doesn't help that Canada has lacked any real national identity other then listing the few minor differences between it and the USA for decades.

xyzzy_plugh 11mo ago
> Canadians are basically Americans for all practical purpose to the degree you can barely tell them apart. It doesn't help that Canada has lacked any real national identity other then listing the few minor differences between it and the USA for decades. Why does this even mean? Does national identity even really matter? It's like saying Californians are basically Texans for all practical purpose. Men and women are pretty similar. To suggest that they're so similar they may as well be the same is absolutely condescending.
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]
- tick_tock_tick 11mo ago
  > Does national identity even really matter? In the context of this whole article aka getting people to join the military it 100% matters. Do you think people are going to fight and die for a concept they don't care about?

colechristensen 11mo ago

You are the one making the assumption that I meant Canada should be controlled by the US when I meant and wrote no such thing. And Europe _absolutely_ should unite under a single government instead of this pseudo national semi-single-currency/market with a vague poorly representative European government designed mostly just to dance around the fact that these small states are stuck on archaic nationalist ideas and can't get along with a unified purpose. The world needs the strength a unified Europe could provide to counteract Russian aggression, the growth of Chinese power, and the crumbling cornerstone of world order the US is going through. Being offended is strange.

dboreham 11mo ago

Those are examples not counterexamples.