5 ms·

>it's not really me doing the things, and I feel like a bit of a fraud I've been thinking about this a bit. We don't really think this way in other areas, is i

>it's not really me doing the things, and I feel like a bit of a fraud I've been thinking about this a bit. We don't really think this way in other areas, is it appropriate to think this way here? My car has an automatic transmission, am I a fraud because the machine is shifting gears for me? My tractor plows a field, am I a fraud because I'm not using draft horses or digging manually? Spell check caught a word, am I a fraud because I didn't look it up in a dictionary?

everdrive 1y ago
I've been thinking about that comparison as well. A common fantasy is that civilization will collapse and the guy who knows how to hunt and start a fire will really excel. In practice, this never happens and he's sort of left behind unless he also has other skills relevant to the modern world. And, for instance, I have barely any knowledge of how my computer works, but it's a tool I use to do my job. (and to have fun at home.) Why are these different than using LLMs? I think at least for me the distinction is whether or not something enables me to perform a task, or whether it's just doing the task for me. If I had to write my own OS and word processor just to write a letter, it'd never happen. The fact that the computer does this for me facilitates my task. I could write the letter by hand, but doing it in a word processor is way better. Especially if I want to print multiple copies of the letter. But for LLMs, my task might be something like "setting up apache is easy, but I've never done it so just tell me how do it so I don't fumble through learning and make it take way longer." The task was setting up Apache. The task was assigned to me, but I didn't really do it. There wasn't necessarily some higher level task that I merely needed Apache for. Apache was the whole task! And I didn't do it! Now, this will not be the case for all LLM-enabled tasks, but I think this distinction speaks to my experience. In the previous word processor example, the LLM would just write my document for me. It doesn't allow me to write my document more efficiently. It's efficient, only in the sense that I no longer need to actually do it myself, except for maybe to act as an editor. (and most people don't even do much of that work) My skill in writing either atrophies or never fully develops since I don't actually need to spend any time doing it or thinking about it. In a perfect world, I use self-discipline to have the LLM show me how to set up Apache, then take notes, and then research, and then set it up manually in subsequent runs; I'd have benefited from learning the task much more quickly than if I'd done it alone, but also used my self-discipline to make sure I actually really learned something and developed expertise as well. My argument is that most people will not succeed in doing this, and will just let the LLM think for them.
- Brendinooo 1y ago
  I remember seeing a tweet awhile back that talked about how modernity separated work from physicality, and now you have to do exercise on purpose. I think the Internet plus car-driven societies had done something similar to being social, and LLMs are doing something to both thinking, as well as the kind of virtue that enables one to master a craft. So, while it's an imperfect answer that I haven't really nailed down yet, maybe the answer is just to realize this and make sure we're doing hard things on purpose sometimes. This stuff has enabled free time, we just can't use it to doomscroll.
  - everdrive 1y ago
    >Internet plus car-driven societies had done something similar to being social, That's an interesting take on the loneliness crisis that I had not considered. I think you're really onto something. Thanks for sharing. I don't want to dive into this topic too much since it's political and really off-topic for the thread, but thank you for suggesting this.
    - njarboe 11mo ago
      Radio and especially TV also had large social effects. People used to play cards, instruments, and other social things before TV. Then household TV watching maxxed at 9 hours/day in 2010 (5hr/d in 1950). (Would like to know the per person watching and these are from Nielsen who would want higher numbers) [1]. Cars help people be social in my world. I would say that riding on a train in your own bubble with strangers is not a social activity, but others would disagree. [1]https://www.bunkhistory.org/resources/when-did-tv-watching-peak https://www.bunkhistory.org/resources/when-did-tv-watching-p...
- gtowey 11mo ago
  > Why are these different than using LLMs? I would say that with a computer you're using a tool to take care of mundane details and speed up the mechanics of tasks in your life. Such as writing a document, or playing a game. I can't think of a way I would be seriously disadvantaged by not having the ability to hand-write an essay or have games I can readily play without a computer. Computers are more like tools in the way a hammer is a tool. I don't mind being totally dependent on a computer for those tasks in the same way I don't mind that I need a hammer anytime I want to drive a nail. But for many people, LLMs replace critical thinking. They offer the allure of outsourcing planning, research, and generating ideas. These skills seem more fundamental to me, and I would say there's definitely a loss somehow of one's humanity if you let those things atrophy to the point you become utterly dependent on LLMs.
thewebguyd 11mo ago
I mostly agree with this. LLMs are just another tool, and we've learned how to use and adapted to using many other tools throughout our history just fine. With the caveat of for our field in particular, it's one of the few that require continuous learning and adaptation, so tech workers in a way are better predisposed to this line of thinking and tool adoption without some of the potential harmful side effects. To pick on spell check, it has been showing that we can develop a dependency on it and thereby losing our own ability to spell and reason about language. But, is that a bad thing? I don't know. What I do know is humans have been outsourcing our thinking for a long time. LLMs are another evolution in that process, just another way to push off cognitive load onto a tool like we've done with stone tablets, books, paper notes, digital notes, google, etc.
chowells 11mo ago
It's appropriate to think this way with LLM output because LLMs are still terrible some significant portion of the time. If you don't actually know what you're doing, you have no way to distinguish between their output being correct or their output being able to pass the tests you can think of. As a software developer, your job is to understand code and business constraints so you can solve problems the way most appropriate for the situation. If you aren't actually keeping up with those constraints as they change through time, you're not doing your job. And yeah, that's a kind of fraud. Maybe it's more on yourself than your employer most of the time, but... It's your job. If you don't want to do it, maybe it's more respectful of your own time, energy, and humanity to move on.

everdrive 1y ago

I've been thinking about that comparison as well. A common fantasy is that civilization will collapse and the guy who knows how to hunt and start a fire will really excel. In practice, this never happens and he's sort of left behind unless he also has other skills relevant to the modern world. And, for instance, I have barely any knowledge of how my computer works, but it's a tool I use to do my job. (and to have fun at home.) Why are these different than using LLMs? I think at least for me the distinction is whether or not something enables me to perform a task, or whether it's just doing the task for me. If I had to write my own OS and word processor just to write a letter, it'd never happen. The fact that the computer does this for me facilitates my task. I could write the letter by hand, but doing it in a word processor is way better. Especially if I want to print multiple copies of the letter. But for LLMs, my task might be something like "setting up apache is easy, but I've never done it so just tell me how do it so I don't fumble through learning and make it take way longer." The task was setting up Apache. The task was assigned to me, but I didn't really do it. There wasn't necessarily some higher level task that I merely needed Apache for. Apache was the whole task! And I didn't do it! Now, this will not be the case for all LLM-enabled tasks, but I think this distinction speaks to my experience. In the previous word processor example, the LLM would just write my document for me. It doesn't allow me to write my document more efficiently. It's efficient, only in the sense that I no longer need to actually do it myself, except for maybe to act as an editor. (and most people don't even do much of that work) My skill in writing either atrophies or never fully develops since I don't actually need to spend any time doing it or thinking about it. In a perfect world, I use self-discipline to have the LLM show me how to set up Apache, then take notes, and then research, and then set it up manually in subsequent runs; I'd have benefited from learning the task much more quickly than if I'd done it alone, but also used my self-discipline to make sure I actually really learned something and developed expertise as well. My argument is that most people will not succeed in doing this, and will just let the LLM think for them.

Brendinooo 1y ago
I remember seeing a tweet awhile back that talked about how modernity separated work from physicality, and now you have to do exercise on purpose. I think the Internet plus car-driven societies had done something similar to being social, and LLMs are doing something to both thinking, as well as the kind of virtue that enables one to master a craft. So, while it's an imperfect answer that I haven't really nailed down yet, maybe the answer is just to realize this and make sure we're doing hard things on purpose sometimes. This stuff has enabled free time, we just can't use it to doomscroll.
- everdrive 1y ago
  >Internet plus car-driven societies had done something similar to being social, That's an interesting take on the loneliness crisis that I had not considered. I think you're really onto something. Thanks for sharing. I don't want to dive into this topic too much since it's political and really off-topic for the thread, but thank you for suggesting this.
  - njarboe 11mo ago
    Radio and especially TV also had large social effects. People used to play cards, instruments, and other social things before TV. Then household TV watching maxxed at 9 hours/day in 2010 (5hr/d in 1950). (Would like to know the per person watching and these are from Nielsen who would want higher numbers) [1]. Cars help people be social in my world. I would say that riding on a train in your own bubble with strangers is not a social activity, but others would disagree. [1]https://www.bunkhistory.org/resources/when-did-tv-watching-peak https://www.bunkhistory.org/resources/when-did-tv-watching-p...
gtowey 11mo ago
> Why are these different than using LLMs? I would say that with a computer you're using a tool to take care of mundane details and speed up the mechanics of tasks in your life. Such as writing a document, or playing a game. I can't think of a way I would be seriously disadvantaged by not having the ability to hand-write an essay or have games I can readily play without a computer. Computers are more like tools in the way a hammer is a tool. I don't mind being totally dependent on a computer for those tasks in the same way I don't mind that I need a hammer anytime I want to drive a nail. But for many people, LLMs replace critical thinking. They offer the allure of outsourcing planning, research, and generating ideas. These skills seem more fundamental to me, and I would say there's definitely a loss somehow of one's humanity if you let those things atrophy to the point you become utterly dependent on LLMs.

thewebguyd 11mo ago

I mostly agree with this. LLMs are just another tool, and we've learned how to use and adapted to using many other tools throughout our history just fine. With the caveat of for our field in particular, it's one of the few that require continuous learning and adaptation, so tech workers in a way are better predisposed to this line of thinking and tool adoption without some of the potential harmful side effects. To pick on spell check, it has been showing that we can develop a dependency on it and thereby losing our own ability to spell and reason about language. But, is that a bad thing? I don't know. What I do know is humans have been outsourcing our thinking for a long time. LLMs are another evolution in that process, just another way to push off cognitive load onto a tool like we've done with stone tablets, books, paper notes, digital notes, google, etc.

chowells 11mo ago

It's appropriate to think this way with LLM output because LLMs are still terrible some significant portion of the time. If you don't actually know what you're doing, you have no way to distinguish between their output being correct or their output being able to pass the tests you can think of. As a software developer, your job is to understand code and business constraints so you can solve problems the way most appropriate for the situation. If you aren't actually keeping up with those constraints as they change through time, you're not doing your job. And yeah, that's a kind of fraud. Maybe it's more on yourself than your employer most of the time, but... It's your job. If you don't want to do it, maybe it's more respectful of your own time, energy, and humanity to move on.