6 ms·

TED 2004, Kunstler Dissects Suburbia

18 points by nir 18y ago

nir 18y ago
Architecture and urban planning are very close to software IMHO, being about form and function and complex systems. This one is a brilliant talk on that subject.
- nir 18y ago
  BTW no one gets spat on and he doesn't say how Twitter will make loads of cash or why <some big company> will die, but it's really really a great talk. Really. Please watch it. I promise it's a good use of your next 20 minutes. You don't even have to upmod it. I will donate any karma points to charity.
  - gravitycop 18y ago
    it's really really a great talk. Really. He implies that Main Street shops are important, and states that the world is running out of cheap oil. Do you believe these things?
    - joeyo 18y ago
      I can't speak for nir, but I certainly believe both of those things.
    - nir 18y ago
      Yeah, I might have been a little excited when posting this, and a bit frustrated at the type of material we've been seeing here recently. To your question, 3 things: 1. Even if you completely disagree with the message, Kunstler's delivery alone is worth the 20 minutes. 2. His urban planning arguments go a bit further than "Main Street shops are important". In my view the suburbs are simply a bad design choice - he explains how they came to be, what are their inherent problems, and why this touches many issues of our society & life quality, well beyond energy consumption. 3. As for the world running out of cheap oil - I'm no expert, but as I understand oil is found in nature rather than produced, so by definition its total amount decreases when use it. Even if we have enough oil to last thousands of years at affordable prices, the political and environmental implications of using it still stand.
      - anamax 18y ago
        > 1. Even if you completely disagree with the message, Kunstler's delivery alone is worth the 20 minutes. If that's the standard, let's get Robin Williams, or Brando, reading the phone book, the Boston phone book if class is relevant. > In my view the suburbs are simply a bad design choice - he explains how they came to be, what are their inherent problems, and why this touches many issues of our society & life quality, well beyond energy consumption. He doesn't actually explain so much as try to justify his combination of disdain, digust, and pity for folks who live in them, folks who don't have the good sense to flee in horror.
        nir 18y ago
        >If that's the standard, let's get Robin Williams, or Brando, reading the phone book Ultimately it's vote-based site, so it has as much chance as anything. Standard-wise, in a week where the top stories were about Arrington getting spat in the face, I honestly don't think this submission is lowering the average. But, again, it's a matter of taste.
        anamax 18y ago
        I didn't say that it lowered the standard. I suggested that "great delivery" is something of a cop-out. I doubt that you posted thinking thinking "great delivery". I suspect that you posted thinking "great message".
      - gravitycop 18y ago
        1. Even if you completely disagree with the message, Kunstler's delivery alone is worth the 20 minutes. Does Kunstler's delivery not seem like bullying to you? Let's consider some of the things he says: "We're normal we're normal we're normal we're normal we're normal, please respect us we're normal we're normal we're normal." But we know what's going on in these houses, you know. We know that little Skippy is loading his Uzi down here, getting ready for homeroom, we know that Heather, his sister Heather, 14 years old, is turning tricks up here to support her drug habit Would you say that to a parent of teenagers who told you that he intentionally chose to raise his children in a suburb because he believed, and still believes, it is good for children to grow up in suburbs? Would you stand up and say that at a townhall meeting of middle-class suburban homeowners and parents?
revorad 18y ago
One of my all time TED favourites.
- gravitycop 18y ago
  Transcript here: http://blog.ted.com/2007/04/james_howard_ku_1.php#more http://blog.ted.com/2007/04/james_howard_ku_1.php#more
mhartl 18y ago
His talk certainly is passionate, but there's not much evidence here. In particular, I see no attempt to grapple with how unnatural cities are. Humans evolved in small hunter-gatherer bands on the African savannah. Therefore dense urban cores are needed to create a sense of place? Non sequitur.
- ardit33 18y ago
  I guess you ignore the last 20,000 years of humanity. Yes, maybe it wasn't cities where people lived; but it was small towns, villages, or caves. Humans have lived bunched up close together in groups for millenia. This isolation that the suburbs inflicts on us is just un-natural. There was a great story in Discovery channel, on how immigrants from Germany, that moved in the USA mid-west, suffered heavily from depression. People were used living in towns and villages, close to family, friends, and support. Now, a lot of these german families, bought a lot of land in the middle of rural midwest, where everything was miles (and hours) of walk to the next house or town. People felt isolated, and women suffered the most. In europe, houses are usually in hills, grouped together, with a town/village center, and the farmed land is outside the town.
  - gravitycop 18y ago
    In europe, houses are usually in hills, grouped together, with a town/village center, and the farmed land is outside the town. And there are/were no farmers? U.S. urban population share, 1800-2000: http://www.demographia.com/db-usrur1800.htm http://www.demographia.com/db-usrur1800.htm 1800 6.1% 1850 15.3% 1900 39.7% 1950 59.0% 2000 79.0% http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/eib3/eib3.htm http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/eib3/eib3.htm Early 20th century agriculture was labor intensive, and it took place on a large number of small, diversified farms in rural areas where more than half of the U.S. population lived. These farms employed close to half of the U.S. workforce
  - mhartl 18y ago
    I don't ignore the last 20,000 years, but (for the most part) our genes do. So my argument about cities is basically sound. (See, e.g., http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/01/04/how_the_city_hurts_your_brain/. http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/01/04/...) You might be right about suburbia, though; it can be quite isolating. N.B. I say this only because I myself misspelled it for years (right up until around 2000): "millennia" has double-ell, double-en. Since making this discovery, I've found that "millenni(um|a)" is misspelled ~20% of the time---and the present occurrence makes two just today!
anamax 18y ago
Yawn. Yet another "I don't like suburbs and/or people who do like them therefore suburbs are evil and/or said people are cretins." screed. If a puritan is someone who is mad because someone, somewhere is having fun, what is the word for such people? Note that he's pining for a past that (1) didn't really exist and (2) to the extent that it existed, people (mostly) abandoned it for suburbia. There are still some instances and he's welcome to live in one. He's even welcome to build more, with his money. (If he's right, folks will flock to them. If he's wrong, well, shouldn't he take the hit?) The folks in suburbia won't mind. And that's what makes them better than he is. They don't get pushed out of shape when someone has different preferences.
- gravitycop 18y ago
  Yet another "I don't like suburbs [...]" screed. Speaking of suburbs, or exurbs, have you seen the latest ones? This one is 51 miles northeast of San Jose: http://www.mountainhouse.net/town/technology.php http://www.mountainhouse.net/town/technology.php Mountain House is truly ready to be the town of tomorrow with its comprehensive technology plan. All homes and businesses will be wired with: · A cutting-edge, expandable fiber-optic broadband telecommunications infrastructure · Virtually unlimited high-speed internet access to online and electronic information · Video conferencing capabilities in both commercial and residential structures and the ability to order goods and services online · A state-of-the-art, community-wide intranet, MyMountainHouse.com, that allows residents special local connectivity, including the ability to access children's schools or in-town businesses without picking up the phone
- ardit33 18y ago
  1) That past did really exist. There was towns/cities, and rural land (with houses miles apart). Suburbia tried to be a hybrid, something between country living and city living, but failed at doing both miserably. There are other social factors. At least, here in CA, there is a huge adversity against building more density, (the NIMBY effect). A vocal group of people are opposed to tall building/building anything close to their backyard, creating a lack of density, and artificially limiting the free market and real town-higher-density formation, at a reasonable price.
martythemaniak 18y ago
Suburbs are a bad design compromise, like an weird all-in-one tool that tries to do 10 things and ends up doing nothing well. The dream was to combine the convenience, excitement and diversity of cities with a relaxed, nature-centric country living. The result unfortunately combined the worst of both - mind-numbing conformity and boredom, isolated unwalkable neighbourhoods and hardly a drop of much nature anywhere. I present Markham, a very typical suburb (exurbs are even worse) of Toronto: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/Markham-suburbs.id.jpg.jpg/400px-Markham-suburbs.id.jpg.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/Mar... As with other things, I'd take the UNIX philosophy here - small, powerful, well-designed tools that can be combined. I'd take a small apartment in the downtown and a small cottage in the middle of nowhere rather than one of the houses above.
- anamax 18y ago
  > As with other things, I'd take the UNIX philosophy here - small, powerful, well-designed tools that can be combined. I'd take a small apartment in the downtown and a small cottage in the middle of nowhere rather than one of the houses above. Feel free - suburb folks aren't going to criticise your preferences. However, many folks can't afford both of those things.
  - martythemaniak 18y ago
    A friend of mine's parents lived in the neighbourhood in that picture and they recently sold their house for close to $400000, which can certainly afford you both a decent apartment and a small place in the woods.
    - gravitycop 18y ago
      $400000 [...] can [...] afford you both a decent apartment and a small place in the woods. $400,000 for an apartment alone would be pretty cheap in New York City. http://blogs.wsj.com/developments/2009/01/30/new-york-city-real-estate-in-dramatic-slowdown-new-report-says http://blogs.wsj.com/developments/2009/01/30/new-york-city-r... From the first quarter, the average price of condos and co-ops fell 11.5%, hitting $1.37 million in the fourth quarter. The median price for condos and co-ops meanwhile, peaked in the second quarter at $920,000 before plunging 17.8% to $757,000 in the fourth quarter.

18 points by nir 18y ago

nir 18y ago

Architecture and urban planning are very close to software IMHO, being about form and function and complex systems. This one is a brilliant talk on that subject.

nir 18y ago
BTW no one gets spat on and he doesn't say how Twitter will make loads of cash or why <some big company> will die, but it's really really a great talk. Really. Please watch it. I promise it's a good use of your next 20 minutes. You don't even have to upmod it. I will donate any karma points to charity.
- gravitycop 18y ago
  it's really really a great talk. Really. He implies that Main Street shops are important, and states that the world is running out of cheap oil. Do you believe these things?
  - joeyo 18y ago
    I can't speak for nir, but I certainly believe both of those things.
  - nir 18y ago
    Yeah, I might have been a little excited when posting this, and a bit frustrated at the type of material we've been seeing here recently. To your question, 3 things: 1. Even if you completely disagree with the message, Kunstler's delivery alone is worth the 20 minutes. 2. His urban planning arguments go a bit further than "Main Street shops are important". In my view the suburbs are simply a bad design choice - he explains how they came to be, what are their inherent problems, and why this touches many issues of our society & life quality, well beyond energy consumption. 3. As for the world running out of cheap oil - I'm no expert, but as I understand oil is found in nature rather than produced, so by definition its total amount decreases when use it. Even if we have enough oil to last thousands of years at affordable prices, the political and environmental implications of using it still stand.
    - anamax 18y ago
      > 1. Even if you completely disagree with the message, Kunstler's delivery alone is worth the 20 minutes. If that's the standard, let's get Robin Williams, or Brando, reading the phone book, the Boston phone book if class is relevant. > In my view the suburbs are simply a bad design choice - he explains how they came to be, what are their inherent problems, and why this touches many issues of our society & life quality, well beyond energy consumption. He doesn't actually explain so much as try to justify his combination of disdain, digust, and pity for folks who live in them, folks who don't have the good sense to flee in horror.
      - nir 18y ago
        >If that's the standard, let's get Robin Williams, or Brando, reading the phone book Ultimately it's vote-based site, so it has as much chance as anything. Standard-wise, in a week where the top stories were about Arrington getting spat in the face, I honestly don't think this submission is lowering the average. But, again, it's a matter of taste.
        anamax 18y ago
        I didn't say that it lowered the standard. I suggested that "great delivery" is something of a cop-out. I doubt that you posted thinking thinking "great delivery". I suspect that you posted thinking "great message".
    - gravitycop 18y ago
      1. Even if you completely disagree with the message, Kunstler's delivery alone is worth the 20 minutes. Does Kunstler's delivery not seem like bullying to you? Let's consider some of the things he says: "We're normal we're normal we're normal we're normal we're normal, please respect us we're normal we're normal we're normal." But we know what's going on in these houses, you know. We know that little Skippy is loading his Uzi down here, getting ready for homeroom, we know that Heather, his sister Heather, 14 years old, is turning tricks up here to support her drug habit Would you say that to a parent of teenagers who told you that he intentionally chose to raise his children in a suburb because he believed, and still believes, it is good for children to grow up in suburbs? Would you stand up and say that at a townhall meeting of middle-class suburban homeowners and parents?

revorad 18y ago

One of my all time TED favourites.

gravitycop 18y ago
Transcript here: http://blog.ted.com/2007/04/james_howard_ku_1.php#more http://blog.ted.com/2007/04/james_howard_ku_1.php#more

mhartl 18y ago

His talk certainly is passionate, but there's not much evidence here. In particular, I see no attempt to grapple with how unnatural cities are. Humans evolved in small hunter-gatherer bands on the African savannah. Therefore dense urban cores are needed to create a sense of place? Non sequitur.

ardit33 18y ago
I guess you ignore the last 20,000 years of humanity. Yes, maybe it wasn't cities where people lived; but it was small towns, villages, or caves. Humans have lived bunched up close together in groups for millenia. This isolation that the suburbs inflicts on us is just un-natural. There was a great story in Discovery channel, on how immigrants from Germany, that moved in the USA mid-west, suffered heavily from depression. People were used living in towns and villages, close to family, friends, and support. Now, a lot of these german families, bought a lot of land in the middle of rural midwest, where everything was miles (and hours) of walk to the next house or town. People felt isolated, and women suffered the most. In europe, houses are usually in hills, grouped together, with a town/village center, and the farmed land is outside the town.
- gravitycop 18y ago
  In europe, houses are usually in hills, grouped together, with a town/village center, and the farmed land is outside the town. And there are/were no farmers? U.S. urban population share, 1800-2000: http://www.demographia.com/db-usrur1800.htm http://www.demographia.com/db-usrur1800.htm 1800 6.1% 1850 15.3% 1900 39.7% 1950 59.0% 2000 79.0% http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/eib3/eib3.htm http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/eib3/eib3.htm Early 20th century agriculture was labor intensive, and it took place on a large number of small, diversified farms in rural areas where more than half of the U.S. population lived. These farms employed close to half of the U.S. workforce
- mhartl 18y ago
  I don't ignore the last 20,000 years, but (for the most part) our genes do. So my argument about cities is basically sound. (See, e.g., http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/01/04/how_the_city_hurts_your_brain/. http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/01/04/...) You might be right about suburbia, though; it can be quite isolating. N.B. I say this only because I myself misspelled it for years (right up until around 2000): "millennia" has double-ell, double-en. Since making this discovery, I've found that "millenni(um|a)" is misspelled ~20% of the time---and the present occurrence makes two just today!

anamax 18y ago

Yawn. Yet another "I don't like suburbs and/or people who do like them therefore suburbs are evil and/or said people are cretins." screed. If a puritan is someone who is mad because someone, somewhere is having fun, what is the word for such people? Note that he's pining for a past that (1) didn't really exist and (2) to the extent that it existed, people (mostly) abandoned it for suburbia. There are still some instances and he's welcome to live in one. He's even welcome to build more, with his money. (If he's right, folks will flock to them. If he's wrong, well, shouldn't he take the hit?) The folks in suburbia won't mind. And that's what makes them better than he is. They don't get pushed out of shape when someone has different preferences.

gravitycop 18y ago
Yet another "I don't like suburbs [...]" screed. Speaking of suburbs, or exurbs, have you seen the latest ones? This one is 51 miles northeast of San Jose: http://www.mountainhouse.net/town/technology.php http://www.mountainhouse.net/town/technology.php Mountain House is truly ready to be the town of tomorrow with its comprehensive technology plan. All homes and businesses will be wired with: · A cutting-edge, expandable fiber-optic broadband telecommunications infrastructure · Virtually unlimited high-speed internet access to online and electronic information · Video conferencing capabilities in both commercial and residential structures and the ability to order goods and services online · A state-of-the-art, community-wide intranet, MyMountainHouse.com, that allows residents special local connectivity, including the ability to access children's schools or in-town businesses without picking up the phone
ardit33 18y ago
1) That past did really exist. There was towns/cities, and rural land (with houses miles apart). Suburbia tried to be a hybrid, something between country living and city living, but failed at doing both miserably. There are other social factors. At least, here in CA, there is a huge adversity against building more density, (the NIMBY effect). A vocal group of people are opposed to tall building/building anything close to their backyard, creating a lack of density, and artificially limiting the free market and real town-higher-density formation, at a reasonable price.

martythemaniak 18y ago

Suburbs are a bad design compromise, like an weird all-in-one tool that tries to do 10 things and ends up doing nothing well. The dream was to combine the convenience, excitement and diversity of cities with a relaxed, nature-centric country living. The result unfortunately combined the worst of both - mind-numbing conformity and boredom, isolated unwalkable neighbourhoods and hardly a drop of much nature anywhere. I present Markham, a very typical suburb (exurbs are even worse) of Toronto: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/Markham-suburbs.id.jpg.jpg/400px-Markham-suburbs.id.jpg.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/Mar... As with other things, I'd take the UNIX philosophy here - small, powerful, well-designed tools that can be combined. I'd take a small apartment in the downtown and a small cottage in the middle of nowhere rather than one of the houses above.

anamax 18y ago
> As with other things, I'd take the UNIX philosophy here - small, powerful, well-designed tools that can be combined. I'd take a small apartment in the downtown and a small cottage in the middle of nowhere rather than one of the houses above. Feel free - suburb folks aren't going to criticise your preferences. However, many folks can't afford both of those things.
- martythemaniak 18y ago
  A friend of mine's parents lived in the neighbourhood in that picture and they recently sold their house for close to $400000, which can certainly afford you both a decent apartment and a small place in the woods.
  - gravitycop 18y ago
    $400000 [...] can [...] afford you both a decent apartment and a small place in the woods. $400,000 for an apartment alone would be pretty cheap in New York City. http://blogs.wsj.com/developments/2009/01/30/new-york-city-real-estate-in-dramatic-slowdown-new-report-says http://blogs.wsj.com/developments/2009/01/30/new-york-city-r... From the first quarter, the average price of condos and co-ops fell 11.5%, hitting $1.37 million in the fourth quarter. The median price for condos and co-ops meanwhile, peaked in the second quarter at $920,000 before plunging 17.8% to $757,000 in the fourth quarter.