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I think you're contradicting yourself or getting some wires crossed. >You're right, talented workers get talented pay, but talented pay in Romania is a lot les

I think you're contradicting yourself or getting some wires crossed. >You're right, talented workers get talented pay, but talented pay in Romania is a lot less than talented pay in San Francisco. But this is due to again, vastly different standards of living in different economies. Geo-based pay ranges have always been a thing, but I think it's a bit reasonable to draw the line here. So it's not: >it absolutely is a part of it ... lol. Because you're not hiring people from elsewhere because of "well I don't need people HERE anymore." The calculus is the same it ever was, even before COVID. Companies were already out-sourcing before great video conferencing software or an understanding of how to work with remote teams. It's an exploitation of different economies, at the expense of the American working class. It's the same thing, just under a shiny new label designed to absolve the managerial class from said exploitation.

alephnerd 1y ago
> Companies were already out-sourcing before great video conferencing software or an understanding of how to work with remote teams. And those experiments failed in the 2000s. But in the 2020s with an extended pandemic lockdown over 2-3 years, async work was proven to succeed. I am one of those decisionmakers and the pandemic effect did convince the last stragglers that offshoring by directly managing a subsidiary in Poland, India, Czechia, Israel, etc with ex-American leadership is good enough. I warned about this during COVID on HN and was downvoted constantly. Pretending that the 2000s-era experience can inform decisions we make in the 2020s is completely flawed. Being in denial of the "brave new world" is only going to do you harm as an IC.
- hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
  Your experience exactly matches mine as well. But some of these comments are just like from another planet. Like a comment I responded to saying "All the tools that existed for remote work had been there, largely in the same fashion and capability, for decades", and then when I responded with disbelief about how anyone could think that remote working tools have been static for decades I was chastised for not giving specific examples. The level of cluelessness on display here is just baffling to me. There used to be tangible benefits for being located in the same city. If I'm just Zooming with my colleagues anyway, it makes zero difference if they are in the same city or thousands of miles away, as long as there is good timezones overlap.
  - alephnerd 1y ago
    Yep. I feel like Cassandra warning the Trojans. All the comments here on this thread feel almost exactly like the same things I heard about Chinese manufacturing or Korean cars back in the 2000s. At an individual level, it's difficult to make any changes, but at the very least one can start thinking of how to live in this new world. Just having enough EQ as an Engineer to give an actual business justification about your initiatives or teams (NARR attach rate, developer velocity, actual tangible examples of generating pipeline) along with actually trying to train and mentor new grads and consistently upskilling would in most cases be enough to protect your job, but people here want to stick their head in the sand.
  - whoknowsidont 1y ago
    >static for decades I was chastised for not giving specific examples. Any examples, really. >The level of cluelessness on display here is just baffling to me. I encourage you to give this thread an honest, deep think about why you feel this way. It's certainly not lack of insight from the other side. The word accountability is relevant here.
    - hn_throwaway_99 11mo ago
      There are literally tons of examples lots of people, myself included, have given in this thread. At this point, arguing with you is like arguing with a dining room table. Have fun in your universe.
  - x0x0 11mo ago
    It's insane. What you now get on your laptop, home internet, and Zoom was only available with $25k a room cisco gear 10 years ago. I don't think remote communication is anywhere near as good as in-person, but it's night and day different from 2015.
- dzonga 11mo ago
  the careers page of most SV darlings or YC startup proves you right. most roles in the US are staff or senior+. the rest of pleb engineering are either in Eastern Europe or India and a couple in Brazil / Latin America. few places choose UK, Ireland etc but savings not enough compared to eastern europe / india.
StackRanker3000 1y ago
I don’t think anyone is arguing that the basic idea of offshoring was invented after the COVID pandemic… But rather that workplaces and workforces geared towards remote working has made it more feasible and accelerated the process
- whoknowsidont 1y ago
  >But rather that workplaces and workforces geared towards remote working has made it more feasible and accelerated the process By what metrics?
  - hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
    Is it really hard to understand that the infrastructure for remote work, which I think everyone would agree got a major upgrade during the pandemic, would also make it much easier for companies to outsource software dev work? Pre-2015 or so, yes, of course there was outsourcing, but it was honestly a major PITA in most cases. Most communication was done in conference calls, very little group video communication, lots of async chats, etc.. Any type of work where you needed a fairly frequent black-and-forth with various team members was rarely outsourced - the type of work that was outsourced was the type that was more likely to have static requirements. But now, though, there is basically no difference working with a colleague who's working from home in the same city vs. working from home thousands of miles away (as long as there is good timezones overlap). And that is a change that only happened around the beginning of the pandemic, and I've personally seen companies much more willing to outsource because of it, and they're outsourcing a much wider type of work (e.g. brand new dev work that is frequently updated based on usage metrics) than they would in the past.
    - whoknowsidont 1y ago
      >Is it really hard to understand that the infrastructure for remote work, which I think everyone would agree got a major upgrade during the pandemic, would also make it much easier for companies to outsource software dev work? No, because it wasn't actually upgraded. Like be honest, the shift into remote work wasn't surrounded by massive tech advances or upgrades. All the tools that existed for remote work had been there, largely in the same fashion and capability, for decades. So when you say the infra. and tooling has improved, you need to be specific because it's very hard to point to anything that was fundamentally or notably improved in the pandemic around remote work. It all existed before. It was all used before. If you weren't using it before the pandemic that was by choice, not because it didn't exist. Everything from our communication software, to developer collaboration tools, to how org's track and manage their employees all existed well, well before the pandemic. It was a cultural change -- not a technological one. > And that is a change that only happened around the beginning of the pandemic I'm not sure what you're basing this on. Especially someone's that's had to work with peers across the globe for 4+ decades -- the tools have always been there.

alephnerd 1y ago

> Companies were already out-sourcing before great video conferencing software or an understanding of how to work with remote teams. And those experiments failed in the 2000s. But in the 2020s with an extended pandemic lockdown over 2-3 years, async work was proven to succeed. I am one of those decisionmakers and the pandemic effect did convince the last stragglers that offshoring by directly managing a subsidiary in Poland, India, Czechia, Israel, etc with ex-American leadership is good enough. I warned about this during COVID on HN and was downvoted constantly. Pretending that the 2000s-era experience can inform decisions we make in the 2020s is completely flawed. Being in denial of the "brave new world" is only going to do you harm as an IC.

hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
Your experience exactly matches mine as well. But some of these comments are just like from another planet. Like a comment I responded to saying "All the tools that existed for remote work had been there, largely in the same fashion and capability, for decades", and then when I responded with disbelief about how anyone could think that remote working tools have been static for decades I was chastised for not giving specific examples. The level of cluelessness on display here is just baffling to me. There used to be tangible benefits for being located in the same city. If I'm just Zooming with my colleagues anyway, it makes zero difference if they are in the same city or thousands of miles away, as long as there is good timezones overlap.
- alephnerd 1y ago
  Yep. I feel like Cassandra warning the Trojans. All the comments here on this thread feel almost exactly like the same things I heard about Chinese manufacturing or Korean cars back in the 2000s. At an individual level, it's difficult to make any changes, but at the very least one can start thinking of how to live in this new world. Just having enough EQ as an Engineer to give an actual business justification about your initiatives or teams (NARR attach rate, developer velocity, actual tangible examples of generating pipeline) along with actually trying to train and mentor new grads and consistently upskilling would in most cases be enough to protect your job, but people here want to stick their head in the sand.
- whoknowsidont 1y ago
  >static for decades I was chastised for not giving specific examples. Any examples, really. >The level of cluelessness on display here is just baffling to me. I encourage you to give this thread an honest, deep think about why you feel this way. It's certainly not lack of insight from the other side. The word accountability is relevant here.
  - hn_throwaway_99 11mo ago
    There are literally tons of examples lots of people, myself included, have given in this thread. At this point, arguing with you is like arguing with a dining room table. Have fun in your universe.
- x0x0 11mo ago
  It's insane. What you now get on your laptop, home internet, and Zoom was only available with $25k a room cisco gear 10 years ago. I don't think remote communication is anywhere near as good as in-person, but it's night and day different from 2015.
dzonga 11mo ago
the careers page of most SV darlings or YC startup proves you right. most roles in the US are staff or senior+. the rest of pleb engineering are either in Eastern Europe or India and a couple in Brazil / Latin America. few places choose UK, Ireland etc but savings not enough compared to eastern europe / india.

StackRanker3000 1y ago

I don’t think anyone is arguing that the basic idea of offshoring was invented after the COVID pandemic… But rather that workplaces and workforces geared towards remote working has made it more feasible and accelerated the process

whoknowsidont 1y ago
>But rather that workplaces and workforces geared towards remote working has made it more feasible and accelerated the process By what metrics?
- hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
  Is it really hard to understand that the infrastructure for remote work, which I think everyone would agree got a major upgrade during the pandemic, would also make it much easier for companies to outsource software dev work? Pre-2015 or so, yes, of course there was outsourcing, but it was honestly a major PITA in most cases. Most communication was done in conference calls, very little group video communication, lots of async chats, etc.. Any type of work where you needed a fairly frequent black-and-forth with various team members was rarely outsourced - the type of work that was outsourced was the type that was more likely to have static requirements. But now, though, there is basically no difference working with a colleague who's working from home in the same city vs. working from home thousands of miles away (as long as there is good timezones overlap). And that is a change that only happened around the beginning of the pandemic, and I've personally seen companies much more willing to outsource because of it, and they're outsourcing a much wider type of work (e.g. brand new dev work that is frequently updated based on usage metrics) than they would in the past.
  - whoknowsidont 1y ago
    >Is it really hard to understand that the infrastructure for remote work, which I think everyone would agree got a major upgrade during the pandemic, would also make it much easier for companies to outsource software dev work? No, because it wasn't actually upgraded. Like be honest, the shift into remote work wasn't surrounded by massive tech advances or upgrades. All the tools that existed for remote work had been there, largely in the same fashion and capability, for decades. So when you say the infra. and tooling has improved, you need to be specific because it's very hard to point to anything that was fundamentally or notably improved in the pandemic around remote work. It all existed before. It was all used before. If you weren't using it before the pandemic that was by choice, not because it didn't exist. Everything from our communication software, to developer collaboration tools, to how org's track and manage their employees all existed well, well before the pandemic. It was a cultural change -- not a technological one. > And that is a change that only happened around the beginning of the pandemic I'm not sure what you're basing this on. Especially someone's that's had to work with peers across the globe for 4+ decades -- the tools have always been there.