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No one likes to hear it because it's not a part of it lol. Paying fair market wages is different than trying to exploit differences in vastly different standard

No one likes to hear it because it's not a part of it lol. Paying fair market wages is different than trying to exploit differences in vastly different standards of living between very very different economies. Talented workers get talented pay -- a fact many company's and execs don't like. It has very little to do with their literal position on earth in relation to a company's real estate foot print. Workers need to be more intelligent and what was that word you used in your comment... "collective." The U.S. managerial class has been GORGING off worker's labor for decades and workers are about to have nothing to show for it.

paulddraper 1y ago
> Talented workers get talented pay > It has very little to do with their literal position on earth in relation to a company's real estate foot print. Which is why they will happily pay for talented labor in other positions on earth.
- whoknowsidont 1y ago
  >Which is why they will happily pay for talented labor in other positions on earth. Which to be clear: is not happening. They're buying very low cost labor and are hoping to power through it for some sweet juicy numbers.
  - cj 1y ago
    What makes someone in India (or the EU for that matter) an inherently worse developer than someone in the US? (Unless that’s not what you’re implying?)
    - whoknowsidont 1y ago
      Nothing. Don't think I said that, I certainly don't think it.
      - cj 1y ago
        In that case I’m having trouble following your logic
        whoknowsidont 1y ago
        Not sure where the gap would be, it's pretty straight forward.
    - ipaddr 1y ago
      For India they culturally value different skills and roles. They value pair programming and treat great ideas from juniors as a negative. Japan has a different work culture that doesn't fit the open model in the west. The issue in the EU is local EU companies don't pay as well because they don't have to (little competition). And a culture of not paying high salaries but paying higher taxes.
justapassenger 1y ago
Talented workers get talented pay. But global average of talented pay is much different than average of talented pay in HCOL areas.
- brendoelfrendo 1y ago
  Right, but, to be clear, that's not what happened in the case of the original post. They claim they were a senior dev who got replaced by several less effective junior devs.
blackqueeriroh 1y ago
What “managerial” class are you speaking of? Because most managers in tech do not make much more than the developers they manage.
- torginus 1y ago
  He's likely talking about strategic not operative management. Not the Team Lead of a dev team, but VPs, department heads, C-levels etc, the kind of people who set quarterly goals and sign contracts. They're an insular and distinct class unto themselves usually, and there's very little movement (or and very different candidate pool) between devs and them.
hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
As someone who over the past couple of years was responsible for some of these hiring decisions, it absolutely is a part of it ... lol. I've worked with absolutely fantastic developers in Argentina, Poland, Romania and Ukraine. You're right, talented workers get talented pay, but talented pay in Romania is a lot less than talented pay in San Francisco. Teams are used to working entirely remotely now, videoconferencing software is great, and teams mostly align to US timezones (not entirely, but for example Eastern European workers shifted their day a few hours later so we get at least 4-5 hours overlap every day). I think companies are a lot smarter about outsourcing now than they were 15-20 years ago and focus more on developer quality, but I've absolutely seen that a company will be much happier to hire 2 excellent senior devs from Poland for what you could get for 1 junior college hire in a high cost of living area in the US.
- whoknowsidont 1y ago
  I think you're contradicting yourself or getting some wires crossed. >You're right, talented workers get talented pay, but talented pay in Romania is a lot less than talented pay in San Francisco. But this is due to again, vastly different standards of living in different economies. Geo-based pay ranges have always been a thing, but I think it's a bit reasonable to draw the line here. So it's not: >it absolutely is a part of it ... lol. Because you're not hiring people from elsewhere because of "well I don't need people HERE anymore." The calculus is the same it ever was, even before COVID. Companies were already out-sourcing before great video conferencing software or an understanding of how to work with remote teams. It's an exploitation of different economies, at the expense of the American working class. It's the same thing, just under a shiny new label designed to absolve the managerial class from said exploitation.
  - alephnerd 1y ago
    > Companies were already out-sourcing before great video conferencing software or an understanding of how to work with remote teams. And those experiments failed in the 2000s. But in the 2020s with an extended pandemic lockdown over 2-3 years, async work was proven to succeed. I am one of those decisionmakers and the pandemic effect did convince the last stragglers that offshoring by directly managing a subsidiary in Poland, India, Czechia, Israel, etc with ex-American leadership is good enough. I warned about this during COVID on HN and was downvoted constantly. Pretending that the 2000s-era experience can inform decisions we make in the 2020s is completely flawed. Being in denial of the "brave new world" is only going to do you harm as an IC.

paulddraper 1y ago

> Talented workers get talented pay > It has very little to do with their literal position on earth in relation to a company's real estate foot print. Which is why they will happily pay for talented labor in other positions on earth.

whoknowsidont 1y ago
>Which is why they will happily pay for talented labor in other positions on earth. Which to be clear: is not happening. They're buying very low cost labor and are hoping to power through it for some sweet juicy numbers.
- cj 1y ago
  What makes someone in India (or the EU for that matter) an inherently worse developer than someone in the US? (Unless that’s not what you’re implying?)
  - whoknowsidont 1y ago
    Nothing. Don't think I said that, I certainly don't think it.
    - cj 1y ago
      In that case I’m having trouble following your logic
      - whoknowsidont 1y ago
        Not sure where the gap would be, it's pretty straight forward.
  - ipaddr 1y ago
    For India they culturally value different skills and roles. They value pair programming and treat great ideas from juniors as a negative. Japan has a different work culture that doesn't fit the open model in the west. The issue in the EU is local EU companies don't pay as well because they don't have to (little competition). And a culture of not paying high salaries but paying higher taxes.

justapassenger 1y ago

Talented workers get talented pay. But global average of talented pay is much different than average of talented pay in HCOL areas.

brendoelfrendo 1y ago
Right, but, to be clear, that's not what happened in the case of the original post. They claim they were a senior dev who got replaced by several less effective junior devs.

blackqueeriroh 1y ago

What “managerial” class are you speaking of? Because most managers in tech do not make much more than the developers they manage.

torginus 1y ago
He's likely talking about strategic not operative management. Not the Team Lead of a dev team, but VPs, department heads, C-levels etc, the kind of people who set quarterly goals and sign contracts. They're an insular and distinct class unto themselves usually, and there's very little movement (or and very different candidate pool) between devs and them.

hn_throwaway_99 1y ago

As someone who over the past couple of years was responsible for some of these hiring decisions, it absolutely is a part of it ... lol. I've worked with absolutely fantastic developers in Argentina, Poland, Romania and Ukraine. You're right, talented workers get talented pay, but talented pay in Romania is a lot less than talented pay in San Francisco. Teams are used to working entirely remotely now, videoconferencing software is great, and teams mostly align to US timezones (not entirely, but for example Eastern European workers shifted their day a few hours later so we get at least 4-5 hours overlap every day). I think companies are a lot smarter about outsourcing now than they were 15-20 years ago and focus more on developer quality, but I've absolutely seen that a company will be much happier to hire 2 excellent senior devs from Poland for what you could get for 1 junior college hire in a high cost of living area in the US.

whoknowsidont 1y ago
I think you're contradicting yourself or getting some wires crossed. >You're right, talented workers get talented pay, but talented pay in Romania is a lot less than talented pay in San Francisco. But this is due to again, vastly different standards of living in different economies. Geo-based pay ranges have always been a thing, but I think it's a bit reasonable to draw the line here. So it's not: >it absolutely is a part of it ... lol. Because you're not hiring people from elsewhere because of "well I don't need people HERE anymore." The calculus is the same it ever was, even before COVID. Companies were already out-sourcing before great video conferencing software or an understanding of how to work with remote teams. It's an exploitation of different economies, at the expense of the American working class. It's the same thing, just under a shiny new label designed to absolve the managerial class from said exploitation.
- alephnerd 1y ago
  > Companies were already out-sourcing before great video conferencing software or an understanding of how to work with remote teams. And those experiments failed in the 2000s. But in the 2020s with an extended pandemic lockdown over 2-3 years, async work was proven to succeed. I am one of those decisionmakers and the pandemic effect did convince the last stragglers that offshoring by directly managing a subsidiary in Poland, India, Czechia, Israel, etc with ex-American leadership is good enough. I warned about this during COVID on HN and was downvoted constantly. Pretending that the 2000s-era experience can inform decisions we make in the 2020s is completely flawed. Being in denial of the "brave new world" is only going to do you harm as an IC.