5 ms·

FWIW, I get on the order of $40/hour as a senior with almost 10 years experience, and it allows me not to worry too much about spending (with a wife earning abo

by mbork_pl 11mo ago

FWIW, I get on the order of $40/hour as a senior with almost 10 years experience, and it allows me not to worry too much about spending (with a wife earning about a third of my salary and two kids). I think I could easily earn at least 50% more if I wanted to work for some rich but soul-crushing corp, but for obvious reasons I don't do that. I guess US cost of living is just insane. (I live in central Europe.)

danans 11mo ago
> FWIW, I get on the order of $40/hour as a senior with almost 10 years experience, and it allows me not to worry too much about spending (with a wife earning about a third of my salary and two kids) How much do you pay annually out of pocket for health insurance premiums and other healthcare expenses? In the US that expense is very high, and is a major source of worry for working families.
- alephnerd 11mo ago
  For most white collar jobs like tech here in the US, your out-of-pocket as percentage is income doesn't play a role in how we decide salary bands. For a family of four, the average health plan is around $10k out of pocket from the employee along with around $20k in employer costs [0]. Yet the median American SWE salary is $187k [1] versus $66k in Poland [2], $93k in Canada [3], and $111k in the UK [4]. Either way an American ends up earning significantly more after healthcare costs and insurance. The issue is salary expectations at the lower performance band haven't kept up with what is expected at that salary band. > In the US that expense is very high, and is a major source of worry for working families When benchmarked against similar peer cities in Canada [5] or the UK [6], CoL is roughly at par yet salaries are significantly higher in the US, especially when comparing peer tech markets like SF [7] versus London [8]. This is the crux of the issue - demanding 100% WFH well past the end of COVID made it hard for us to justify domestic hiring when 1. Async was successfully proven to not impact business operation 2. A reverse brain drain of all nationalities in the US during COVID meant it was easier for employers to work with them to open a hub office or GCC abroad 3. A new grad is demanding salaries that simply don't make the economics of training and hiring new grads work. At $70k-$110k it does, but not beyond that. 4. Companies have now adopted the Netflix model - by cutting low performers, we can actually give higher pay bands to employees who actually have a business impact, as can be reflected in the rise in 75th percentile tech salaries. [0] - https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/how-much-do-people-with-employer-plans-spend-out-of-pocket-on-cost-sharing/ https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/how-muc... [1] - https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/united-states https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/united-... [2] - https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/canada https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/canada [3] - https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/canada https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/canada [4] - https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/united-kingdom https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/united-... [5] - https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Canada https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_resu... [6] - https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=United+Kingdom https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_resu... [7] - https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&city1=London&country2=United+States&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
  - evantbyrne 11mo ago
    I think you make some solid points, but there are major tradeoffs some of the data is not totally convincing. If US workers are so much more highly paid than foreign workers, then we can reasonably expect the best workers to migrate to the US whenever possible. It's pretty easy for Canadians to cross the border. So one reason to hire American developers is for quality. The other is simply that these companies exist in the US, which means collaboration needs to be done in US time zones, which makes overseas workers far less efficient, not to mention the major negative impacts on worker morale. So there can be reasons to hire out of country, but the tradeoffs are significant even when well executed.
    - alephnerd 11mo ago
      > If US workers are so much more highly paid than foreign workers, then we can reasonably expect the best workers to migrate to the US whenever possible Not really. No one wants to leave their families, and the upper tier of salaries in alternative geos are high enough to capture the higher talent tier because their salary expectations are based on their domestic condition. On top of that, the US immigration system is severely backlogged. It can take decades for Chinese and Indian nationals to become green card holders, and we as employees increasingly expect foreign nationals to pay the filing costs - not us. > other is simply that these companies exist in the US, which means collaboration needs to be done in US time zones, which makes overseas workers far less efficient and having major negative impacts on worker morale Not anymore. WFH proved async work models can ensure business continuity. On top of that, the bulk of layoffs during COVID were workers on work visas who were given the option to return to their home countries and open an office there. This is what Google did in Hyderabad, Bangalore, and Warsaw, Databricks in Bangalore, Amazon in Canada and India, and Nvidia in Bangalore. Furthermore, we as employers don't really sponsor VPs, Engineering Managers/Directors, Product Managers, and Staff/Principal Engineers on O-1 visas. Most are stuck on some form of EB1/2 or L1/2, and those who apply to O1s who aren't founders or extremely critical to the business are being sponsored but filing out-of-pocket. It just isn't attractive to immigrate to America long term anymore as a white collar employee in most cases now aside from unicorn roles which employees then use to boomerang back to executive roles or demand US salaries in their home country. Ideally we need to build a domestic talent pipeline, but universities failed severely by watering down curricula in an attempt to compete with bootcamps, which burnt a lot of employers disincentivizing them from hiring early career, and state and local jurisdictions in the US just don't give us the support or pipeline needed to build a competitive early career hiring pipeline. For example, in cybersecurity, I can hire someone in Israel who has done offensive security work for a couple years in a military, police, internal security capacity or someone in India who participated in one of the dozens of Police Force, Army, or Home Affairs cybersecurity internship programs. Similar programs like Cyberpatriots and the Cyber Incentive Program (approx $100M) were mismanaged as was found in a 2023-25 investigation by the DHS OIG [0][1] and an entire generation of students of cybersecurity scholarships quit in 2016 when the Trump 1 admin cut funding for cybersecurity scholarship programs. [0] - https://fedscoop.com/cisa-cyber-incentive-program-dhs-inspector-general-report/ https://fedscoop.com/cisa-cyber-incentive-program-dhs-inspec... [1] - https://www.oig.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/assets/2025-09/OIG-25-38-Sep25.pdf https://www.oig.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/assets/2025-09/O...
- ponector 11mo ago
  I'm similar salary band, I pay 9% of my annual salary for mandatory medical insurance, but it's usually hard to get an appointment in reasonable time so you are going to pay extra 50-100€ for a visit to the same doctor, but in private clinic. And also vaccination and dental is not covered by that 9% payment.
- yonaguska 11mo ago
  My wife is a full-time-mother and is currently uninsured because we'd be looking at doubling the cost of insurance, and paying close to 25k a year for insurance. It is a completely broken system at this point.
- mbork_pl 11mo ago
  > How much do you pay annually out of pocket for health insurance premiums and other healthcare expenses? Very rough estimation: $9000. I'm not sure how much my wife pays - this is paid by the employer and she usually doesn't bother to check. (This is mainly insurance, we seldom use public healthcare.)

danans 11mo ago

> FWIW, I get on the order of $40/hour as a senior with almost 10 years experience, and it allows me not to worry too much about spending (with a wife earning about a third of my salary and two kids) How much do you pay annually out of pocket for health insurance premiums and other healthcare expenses? In the US that expense is very high, and is a major source of worry for working families.

alephnerd 11mo ago
For most white collar jobs like tech here in the US, your out-of-pocket as percentage is income doesn't play a role in how we decide salary bands. For a family of four, the average health plan is around $10k out of pocket from the employee along with around $20k in employer costs [0]. Yet the median American SWE salary is $187k [1] versus $66k in Poland [2], $93k in Canada [3], and $111k in the UK [4]. Either way an American ends up earning significantly more after healthcare costs and insurance. The issue is salary expectations at the lower performance band haven't kept up with what is expected at that salary band. > In the US that expense is very high, and is a major source of worry for working families When benchmarked against similar peer cities in Canada [5] or the UK [6], CoL is roughly at par yet salaries are significantly higher in the US, especially when comparing peer tech markets like SF [7] versus London [8]. This is the crux of the issue - demanding 100% WFH well past the end of COVID made it hard for us to justify domestic hiring when 1. Async was successfully proven to not impact business operation 2. A reverse brain drain of all nationalities in the US during COVID meant it was easier for employers to work with them to open a hub office or GCC abroad 3. A new grad is demanding salaries that simply don't make the economics of training and hiring new grads work. At $70k-$110k it does, but not beyond that. 4. Companies have now adopted the Netflix model - by cutting low performers, we can actually give higher pay bands to employees who actually have a business impact, as can be reflected in the rise in 75th percentile tech salaries. [0] - https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/how-much-do-people-with-employer-plans-spend-out-of-pocket-on-cost-sharing/ https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/how-muc... [1] - https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/united-states https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/united-... [2] - https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/canada https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/canada [3] - https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/canada https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/canada [4] - https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/united-kingdom https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/united-... [5] - https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Canada https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_resu... [6] - https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=United+Kingdom https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_resu... [7] - https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&city1=London&country2=United+States&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
- evantbyrne 11mo ago
  I think you make some solid points, but there are major tradeoffs some of the data is not totally convincing. If US workers are so much more highly paid than foreign workers, then we can reasonably expect the best workers to migrate to the US whenever possible. It's pretty easy for Canadians to cross the border. So one reason to hire American developers is for quality. The other is simply that these companies exist in the US, which means collaboration needs to be done in US time zones, which makes overseas workers far less efficient, not to mention the major negative impacts on worker morale. So there can be reasons to hire out of country, but the tradeoffs are significant even when well executed.
  - alephnerd 11mo ago
    > If US workers are so much more highly paid than foreign workers, then we can reasonably expect the best workers to migrate to the US whenever possible Not really. No one wants to leave their families, and the upper tier of salaries in alternative geos are high enough to capture the higher talent tier because their salary expectations are based on their domestic condition. On top of that, the US immigration system is severely backlogged. It can take decades for Chinese and Indian nationals to become green card holders, and we as employees increasingly expect foreign nationals to pay the filing costs - not us. > other is simply that these companies exist in the US, which means collaboration needs to be done in US time zones, which makes overseas workers far less efficient and having major negative impacts on worker morale Not anymore. WFH proved async work models can ensure business continuity. On top of that, the bulk of layoffs during COVID were workers on work visas who were given the option to return to their home countries and open an office there. This is what Google did in Hyderabad, Bangalore, and Warsaw, Databricks in Bangalore, Amazon in Canada and India, and Nvidia in Bangalore. Furthermore, we as employers don't really sponsor VPs, Engineering Managers/Directors, Product Managers, and Staff/Principal Engineers on O-1 visas. Most are stuck on some form of EB1/2 or L1/2, and those who apply to O1s who aren't founders or extremely critical to the business are being sponsored but filing out-of-pocket. It just isn't attractive to immigrate to America long term anymore as a white collar employee in most cases now aside from unicorn roles which employees then use to boomerang back to executive roles or demand US salaries in their home country. Ideally we need to build a domestic talent pipeline, but universities failed severely by watering down curricula in an attempt to compete with bootcamps, which burnt a lot of employers disincentivizing them from hiring early career, and state and local jurisdictions in the US just don't give us the support or pipeline needed to build a competitive early career hiring pipeline. For example, in cybersecurity, I can hire someone in Israel who has done offensive security work for a couple years in a military, police, internal security capacity or someone in India who participated in one of the dozens of Police Force, Army, or Home Affairs cybersecurity internship programs. Similar programs like Cyberpatriots and the Cyber Incentive Program (approx $100M) were mismanaged as was found in a 2023-25 investigation by the DHS OIG [0][1] and an entire generation of students of cybersecurity scholarships quit in 2016 when the Trump 1 admin cut funding for cybersecurity scholarship programs. [0] - https://fedscoop.com/cisa-cyber-incentive-program-dhs-inspector-general-report/ https://fedscoop.com/cisa-cyber-incentive-program-dhs-inspec... [1] - https://www.oig.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/assets/2025-09/OIG-25-38-Sep25.pdf https://www.oig.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/assets/2025-09/O...
ponector 11mo ago
I'm similar salary band, I pay 9% of my annual salary for mandatory medical insurance, but it's usually hard to get an appointment in reasonable time so you are going to pay extra 50-100€ for a visit to the same doctor, but in private clinic. And also vaccination and dental is not covered by that 9% payment.
yonaguska 11mo ago
My wife is a full-time-mother and is currently uninsured because we'd be looking at doubling the cost of insurance, and paying close to 25k a year for insurance. It is a completely broken system at this point.
mbork_pl 11mo ago
> How much do you pay annually out of pocket for health insurance premiums and other healthcare expenses? Very rough estimation: $9000. I'm not sure how much my wife pays - this is paid by the employer and she usually doesn't bother to check. (This is mainly insurance, we seldom use public healthcare.)