5 ms·

Seeing book sections or chapters starting with zero, always confuses me. I know that this convention is probably inspired by the fact that the addresses of memo

by zkmon 1y ago

Seeing book sections or chapters starting with zero, always confuses me. I know that this convention is probably inspired by the fact that the addresses of memory locations start with zero. But that case was due to that fact one of the combination of the voltages can be all zeros. So, it's actually the count of combinations, and I don't think it can be used for ordinal enumeration of worldly things such as book chapters, or while talking about the spans in space and time (decades, centuries, miles etc). There is no zeroth century, there is no zeroth mile and there is no zeroth chapter. In case the chapter numbers are not meant be ordinal, then I think it would be odd to call Chapter 3 as fourth chapter.

hollerith 1y ago
There is however the zeroth element of a vector in most programming languages.
- zkmon 1y ago
  Zero is not an ordinal number. There can be a vector element indexed with zero, but it is not "zeroth" element. Book chapter numbers are ordinal numbers.
  - vouwfietsman 1y ago
    But what is there to gain with this distinction? Just the convenience of having an ordinal number to say? Rather than saying "chapter 0, chapter 1, chapter 2" one can say "the fourth chapter"? Or is it the fact that the chapter with number 4 has 3 chapters preceding it? On first glance I find this all rather meaningless pedantry.
    - oh_my_goodness 1y ago
      If I use ordinal numbers to count, then counting tells me the number of objects. Sometimes I want to know the number of objects. EDIT: Yeah, I don't know why book chapter labels shouldn't start with "0". It seems fine to me. They could use letters instead of numbers for all I care.
      - zkmon 1y ago
        If they use letters instead of numbers, note that letter "A" is the first alphabet, not zeroth alphabet.
        oh_my_goodness 1y ago
        When I'm counting letters it's more convenient to go "one, two, three." When I'm finding the offset between letters it's more convenient to go "zero, one, two." Neither of these methods is going to displace the other. Definitions are fine, and I agree that "A" is the first letter. But that's no use to people who need to think clearly about the offset between "A" and "C" right now. Should I tell them they're wrong, they have to count to three and then subtract one? Because the dictionary says so?
        zkmon 1y ago
        Offset is an answer to the question "where does Nth memory location start from?". The answer is "after N-1 locations". It's the count of locations that need to be skipped by the reader, to reach the start of Nth memory location. Book chapters and page numbers are not offsets.
        vouwfietsman 1y ago
        > Book chapter numbers are ordinal numbers > Book chapters and page numbers are not offsets. I don't know but I feel like you are making a point out of something arbitrary. When I listen to an audio book, everyone always says: "Chapter 1", not "the first chapter" so why is this important? I think extreme attention to to arbitrary meaningless details is how we ended up with most rules in language that we are starting to collectively detest.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
danmaz74 1y ago
The reason is that, for an array (or vector), you find the memory position for the i-th element with the base address + i*word_length. And the first element is in the base address - so has index 0.
- Jtsummers 1y ago
  It has memory offset 0, which we use as the array index for convenience so that there's no distinction between a memory offset-base and the corresponding array index-base. That's what happens when your arrays are barely different from pointers, as in C. If your arrays aren't just a stand-in for raw pointers, then there's little reason to require 0-based indexing. You can use more natural indexes based on your particular application, and many languages do allow arbitrary indices.
aaaronic 1y ago
Building floor numbers in at least a few countries I’m aware of start from zero or “G” ( or the local language equivalent for “ground“) with 1 being the first story above the ground. I think you’re just biased to think that starting must “naturally” begin with 1. Zero is just a good a place to start and some people do start counting from zero.
- zkmon 1y ago
  The floor number case arises so because traditionally it is the count of "built" floors. So, ground is technically not a floor in that sense. Also, if the floor indicates a separation (cut) between the living spaces, ground floor can be numbered as zero, just like the start point of a measuring tape is numbered as zero.
- 1718627440 1y ago
  There are countries that don't? Do they just skip a number and go -2, -1, 1, 2, ...?
64718283661 1y ago
A zeroeth century sounds reasonable to me.
moron4hire 1y ago
Dijkstra wrote a rather famous screed against 1-based indexing, so it's more of an inside joke. You're also wrong about there being no 0th mile. https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/u-s-route-1-mile-0-sign https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/u-s-route-1-mile-0-sign
griffzhowl 1y ago
Usually the chapter 0 is preliminary or prerequisite material. It makes sense in an obvious and intuitive way if you want an ordinal "before the first", even if that sense isn't a rigorous mathematical one (although I think there's no problem with it). I guess the practice was influenced by computer science - I don't know of an example that precedes it, but one fairly early one I've found is Bishop and Goldberg's Tensor Analysis on Manifolds from 1968, with a chapter 0 on set theory and topology. Back then the authors felt the need to justify their numbering in the preface: "The initial chapter has been numbered 0 because it logically precedes the main topics" Quite straightforward. There's also the "zeroth law of thermodynamics", which was explicitly identified long after the first, second, and third laws, but was felt more primary or basic, hence the need for an "ordinal before the first"
- zkmon 1y ago
  Hopefully they don't discover another more fundamental law, to be called as "minus oneth" law
  - griffzhowl 1y ago
    Indeed
asimpletune 1y ago
If you’re at a corner and someone asks for directions, you say “three blocks that way”. That means three blocks starting from here. Then what do you call “here”? The name for where you start from in this scenario is usually not required because it’s obvious what you mean and everyone understands the first block means you have to first walk a block, not that where you start is the first block. So in that sense yes we have a zeroth chapter. That’s when you’re at the beginning of the first one but haven’t read all the way.
- oh_my_goodness 1y ago
  Folks ... cardinal and ordinal numbers both have "just so" stories to support them. We're unlikely to eliminate either one of them today.
- zkmon 1y ago
  "here" is definitely not a zeroth block. As soon you start walking, you are in the first block. However, if you are numbering the separations (cuts) between the blocks, you can number that "here" as zero.
  - asimpletune 1y ago
    Ok as soon as you start walking your are in the first block, I agree. So then where are you before that? What block were you at before you started moving, when you were giving directions? What is the name of the block from which you left to enter the first block? Before you started walking I mean. And mustn’t that block be before that other first? When we move from where we start we count up, so then mustn’t an earlier block be counting down? Counting down would mean a number smaller than one. And are blocks not counted in units, as whole numbers? So would it not be the case that one block less than 1 must be by necessity the zeroth block? In other words if you agree that “as soon as you start walking, you are in the first block”, then you must also agree that before you left you began in the zeroth block. How else could it be interpreted?
    - zkmon 1y ago
lionkor 1y ago
The first element in a collection at address 15 is at address 15. The offset of an element from the start is addr-start, so 15-15=0 for the first, 16-15=1 for the second, etc. that's why we start from 0, not because of voltages, at least in compsci.
- zkmon 1y ago
  This is all mostly about cuts and spans in a continuum. Cuts can be numbered starting with zero, but spans can't be. Book chapters are spans of content.

by zkmon 1y ago

hollerith 1y ago

There is however the zeroth element of a vector in most programming languages.

zkmon 1y ago
Zero is not an ordinal number. There can be a vector element indexed with zero, but it is not "zeroth" element. Book chapter numbers are ordinal numbers.
- vouwfietsman 1y ago
  But what is there to gain with this distinction? Just the convenience of having an ordinal number to say? Rather than saying "chapter 0, chapter 1, chapter 2" one can say "the fourth chapter"? Or is it the fact that the chapter with number 4 has 3 chapters preceding it? On first glance I find this all rather meaningless pedantry.
  - oh_my_goodness 1y ago
    If I use ordinal numbers to count, then counting tells me the number of objects. Sometimes I want to know the number of objects. EDIT: Yeah, I don't know why book chapter labels shouldn't start with "0". It seems fine to me. They could use letters instead of numbers for all I care.
    - zkmon 1y ago
      If they use letters instead of numbers, note that letter "A" is the first alphabet, not zeroth alphabet.
      - oh_my_goodness 1y ago
        When I'm counting letters it's more convenient to go "one, two, three." When I'm finding the offset between letters it's more convenient to go "zero, one, two." Neither of these methods is going to displace the other. Definitions are fine, and I agree that "A" is the first letter. But that's no use to people who need to think clearly about the offset between "A" and "C" right now. Should I tell them they're wrong, they have to count to three and then subtract one? Because the dictionary says so?
        zkmon 1y ago
        Offset is an answer to the question "where does Nth memory location start from?". The answer is "after N-1 locations". It's the count of locations that need to be skipped by the reader, to reach the start of Nth memory location. Book chapters and page numbers are not offsets.
        vouwfietsman 1y ago
        > Book chapter numbers are ordinal numbers > Book chapters and page numbers are not offsets. I don't know but I feel like you are making a point out of something arbitrary. When I listen to an audio book, everyone always says: "Chapter 1", not "the first chapter" so why is this important? I think extreme attention to to arbitrary meaningless details is how we ended up with most rules in language that we are starting to collectively detest.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]

danmaz74 1y ago

The reason is that, for an array (or vector), you find the memory position for the i-th element with the base address + i*word_length. And the first element is in the base address - so has index 0.

Jtsummers 1y ago
It has memory offset 0, which we use as the array index for convenience so that there's no distinction between a memory offset-base and the corresponding array index-base. That's what happens when your arrays are barely different from pointers, as in C. If your arrays aren't just a stand-in for raw pointers, then there's little reason to require 0-based indexing. You can use more natural indexes based on your particular application, and many languages do allow arbitrary indices.

aaaronic 1y ago

Building floor numbers in at least a few countries I’m aware of start from zero or “G” ( or the local language equivalent for “ground“) with 1 being the first story above the ground. I think you’re just biased to think that starting must “naturally” begin with 1. Zero is just a good a place to start and some people do start counting from zero.

zkmon 1y ago
The floor number case arises so because traditionally it is the count of "built" floors. So, ground is technically not a floor in that sense. Also, if the floor indicates a separation (cut) between the living spaces, ground floor can be numbered as zero, just like the start point of a measuring tape is numbered as zero.
1718627440 1y ago
There are countries that don't? Do they just skip a number and go -2, -1, 1, 2, ...?

64718283661 1y ago

A zeroeth century sounds reasonable to me.

moron4hire 1y ago

Dijkstra wrote a rather famous screed against 1-based indexing, so it's more of an inside joke. You're also wrong about there being no 0th mile. https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/u-s-route-1-mile-0-sign https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/u-s-route-1-mile-0-sign

griffzhowl 1y ago

Usually the chapter 0 is preliminary or prerequisite material. It makes sense in an obvious and intuitive way if you want an ordinal "before the first", even if that sense isn't a rigorous mathematical one (although I think there's no problem with it). I guess the practice was influenced by computer science - I don't know of an example that precedes it, but one fairly early one I've found is Bishop and Goldberg's Tensor Analysis on Manifolds from 1968, with a chapter 0 on set theory and topology. Back then the authors felt the need to justify their numbering in the preface: "The initial chapter has been numbered 0 because it logically precedes the main topics" Quite straightforward. There's also the "zeroth law of thermodynamics", which was explicitly identified long after the first, second, and third laws, but was felt more primary or basic, hence the need for an "ordinal before the first"

zkmon 1y ago
Hopefully they don't discover another more fundamental law, to be called as "minus oneth" law
- griffzhowl 1y ago
  Indeed

asimpletune 1y ago

If you’re at a corner and someone asks for directions, you say “three blocks that way”. That means three blocks starting from here. Then what do you call “here”? The name for where you start from in this scenario is usually not required because it’s obvious what you mean and everyone understands the first block means you have to first walk a block, not that where you start is the first block. So in that sense yes we have a zeroth chapter. That’s when you’re at the beginning of the first one but haven’t read all the way.

oh_my_goodness 1y ago
Folks ... cardinal and ordinal numbers both have "just so" stories to support them. We're unlikely to eliminate either one of them today.
zkmon 1y ago
"here" is definitely not a zeroth block. As soon you start walking, you are in the first block. However, if you are numbering the separations (cuts) between the blocks, you can number that "here" as zero.
- asimpletune 1y ago
  Ok as soon as you start walking your are in the first block, I agree. So then where are you before that? What block were you at before you started moving, when you were giving directions? What is the name of the block from which you left to enter the first block? Before you started walking I mean. And mustn’t that block be before that other first? When we move from where we start we count up, so then mustn’t an earlier block be counting down? Counting down would mean a number smaller than one. And are blocks not counted in units, as whole numbers? So would it not be the case that one block less than 1 must be by necessity the zeroth block? In other words if you agree that “as soon as you start walking, you are in the first block”, then you must also agree that before you left you began in the zeroth block. How else could it be interpreted?
  - zkmon 1y ago

lionkor 1y ago

The first element in a collection at address 15 is at address 15. The offset of an element from the start is addr-start, so 15-15=0 for the first, 16-15=1 for the second, etc. that's why we start from 0, not because of voltages, at least in compsci.

zkmon 1y ago
This is all mostly about cuts and spans in a continuum. Cuts can be numbered starting with zero, but spans can't be. Book chapters are spans of content.