7 ms·

I was making $50/hour fresh out of college back in 2014. And I worked remotely. $45/hour today is not great given the cost of living.

alephnerd 11mo ago
London and Toronto have a similar CoL as the Bay Area and $45/hr is a mid-career tech salaries in both Greater London and GTA. Edit: can't reply but every single white collar job provides an employer healthcare plan that is equally as competitive as the public healthcare plans in Canada and the UK. And especially if you were being paid $50/hr as a new grad in 2014. Edit 2: > And I was in Michigan. All the more reason I would have pushed back severely. It's easier to find talent at scale in London or GTA - metros there have a population larger than the entire state of MI, and with a breadth of options beyond UMich Ann-Arbor.
- evantbyrne 11mo ago
  London and Toronto give people healthcare. And I was in Michigan.
  - monero-xmr 11mo ago
    The vast majority of jobs in America give healthcare. The quality is vastly superior to London and Toronto, although we pay far more (and our medical professionals are upper middle class rather than middle / lower class). However this is a huge hidden portion of salary that most are not aware of, about $25k for a family of 4, which increases labor costs greatly. On sheer metrics of access and quality, America kicks the shit out of Europe and Canada
    - flir 11mo ago
      So, uh... how come you die younger?
      - hunterpayne 11mo ago
        Opioid epidemic skews the stats. The OP's point is why the wealthy in your country comes to the US for healthcare
        flir 11mo ago
        When did the opioid epidemic start? How come other countries don't have that? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita#/media/File:Life_expectancy_vs_healthcare_spending.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_hea...
    - lbreakjai 11mo ago
      I hope we continue getting the shit kicked out of us, if victory looks like medical bankrupcy, and insulin rationing.
- csullivannet 11mo ago
  $45/hr is low for GTA. I was making about that in Toronto in 2017 with two years experience, one year vocational degree, and a bachelor's in a completely unrelated field.
- usefulcat 11mo ago
  > every single white collar job provides an employer healthcare plan that The key word there is employer. Contractors often don't get health insurance, and contract jobs are not uncommon in the US.
mbork_pl 11mo ago
FWIW, I get on the order of $40/hour as a senior with almost 10 years experience, and it allows me not to worry too much about spending (with a wife earning about a third of my salary and two kids). I think I could easily earn at least 50% more if I wanted to work for some rich but soul-crushing corp, but for obvious reasons I don't do that. I guess US cost of living is just insane. (I live in central Europe.)
- danans 11mo ago
  > FWIW, I get on the order of $40/hour as a senior with almost 10 years experience, and it allows me not to worry too much about spending (with a wife earning about a third of my salary and two kids) How much do you pay annually out of pocket for health insurance premiums and other healthcare expenses? In the US that expense is very high, and is a major source of worry for working families.
  - alephnerd 11mo ago
    For most white collar jobs like tech here in the US, your out-of-pocket as percentage is income doesn't play a role in how we decide salary bands. For a family of four, the average health plan is around $10k out of pocket from the employee along with around $20k in employer costs [0]. Yet the median American SWE salary is $187k [1] versus $66k in Poland [2], $93k in Canada [3], and $111k in the UK [4]. Either way an American ends up earning significantly more after healthcare costs and insurance. The issue is salary expectations at the lower performance band haven't kept up with what is expected at that salary band. > In the US that expense is very high, and is a major source of worry for working families When benchmarked against similar peer cities in Canada [5] or the UK [6], CoL is roughly at par yet salaries are significantly higher in the US, especially when comparing peer tech markets like SF [7] versus London [8]. This is the crux of the issue - demanding 100% WFH well past the end of COVID made it hard for us to justify domestic hiring when 1. Async was successfully proven to not impact business operation 2. A reverse brain drain of all nationalities in the US during COVID meant it was easier for employers to work with them to open a hub office or GCC abroad 3. A new grad is demanding salaries that simply don't make the economics of training and hiring new grads work. At $70k-$110k it does, but not beyond that. 4. Companies have now adopted the Netflix model - by cutting low performers, we can actually give higher pay bands to employees who actually have a business impact, as can be reflected in the rise in 75th percentile tech salaries. [0] - https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/how-much-do-people-with-employer-plans-spend-out-of-pocket-on-cost-sharing/ https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/how-muc... [1] - https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/united-states https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/united-... [2] - https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/canada https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/canada [3] - https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/canada https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/canada [4] - https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/united-kingdom https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/united-... [5] - https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Canada https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_resu... [6] - https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=United+Kingdom https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_resu... [7] - https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&city1=London&country2=United+States&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
lisbbb 11mo ago
Jeez--I was making $50/hr in 2004 in one of my first jobs after I finished my PhD and opted out of academia. That pay didn't go that far back then! This is what upsets me about my career--that logistic pay curve. You initially grow fast and then it tops out and never gets better, but your costs keep rising, particularly as you have a family. I'm paying for one kid's college tuition right now, she has 1.5 years left, and will then enter a dubious job market. My son is 15, so if he goes to college, I won't be paying tuition for him until Fall 2028. The problem is, I'm no longer a developer. I'm currently a nothing working on figuring out "something." I have a lot of skills and talents, but seemingly not many that will pay. I'm looking at any 2yr. training program that can get me certified to do something useful. It's so freaking bizarre to be sitting here with a degree in CS/Math, an MS in Computer Engineering from a very reputable university, and a doctorate in Information Management, also from a very reputable university, and looking at basically doing blue collar work! My nation has utterly failed me in every possible manner. I should add that we are looking to move out of our fairly high-cost of living state for a possibly lower cost of living state, but there are complications to that plan, too. My wife doesn't really want to move our son out of the high school he is in. I'm saying that other imperatives need to be addressed before they become full-blown crises. I'm being taxed to death, and costs like insurance are rising fast.
- 9rx 11mo ago
  > My nation has utterly failed me in every possible manner. We've failed ourselves too, though. If I was some random person with endless money burning a hole in my pocket, what would I even do with a CS/Math/Computer engineer/Information manager? It is in no way clear how life is improved by working with such a person. Other industries put a lot of effort into marketing what function they serve. Said random person knows exactly when and why they'd want to hire a plumber, electrician, structural engineer, lawyer, accountant, physician, etc. But us...? We've rested on our laurels thinking Google, Microsoft, and Meta will forever want us, putting no effort into expanding our market.
- giardini 11mo ago
  Can't do anything about it now but getting that PhD may be the most costly decision you made: https://philip.greenspun.com/careers/ https://philip.greenspun.com/careers/ scroll down to the phrase: THIS IS YOUR EDUCATION, THIS IS YOUR SALARY If I were you I'd be tempted to rewrite my PhD as a multi-year "special project". Reason is that hiring a PhD is controversial unless you're a university or a research division of a corporation. In contrast, the CS/Math & MS will always be solid & saleable.
9rx 11mo ago
> I was making $50/hour fresh out of college back in 2014. And I worked remotely. Same for me, except out of high school, and a decade earlier. That's the sordid tale of the industry. Outside of a handful of FAANG high flyers, pay, in real dollars, has been very steadily decreasing over many decades. But it took high inflation for us to notice. Now we're in a difficult spot because we feel we need to make more to make up for the considerably higher cost of living, but there is no market willing to pay more — and never was.
- alephnerd 11mo ago
  I wouldn't be that pessimistic. The market can bear to pay high salaries for the right talent. If you can show me you have tangible development skills and can think about the product or feature you develop as a business (eg. Can you justify to me in financial terms the net benefit doing a refactor does versus keeping the status quo) you will be fine. We aren't going to pay you $300k-$400k TC just to be a code monkey. We expect you to be able to help inform actual business decisions and not be a PITA when thinking about the core metrics that matter for a business - NARR, FCF, and COGS. So, being a developer who is specialized in a business domain (eg. Being a fullstack developer but with a decade of experience working on Cloud Security products) makes it easier for hiring managers to decide whether or not to hire you. And as a former PM, those kinds of Engineers are the best to work with becuase they understand the pitfalls that exist in a subdomain and have opinions and the ability to justify them. Those who can upskill or show the ability to upskill are also worth their weight in TC. And finally, you will have to be located in Tier 1 tech hubs now (Bay Area, Seattle, Austin, NYC). The 5-7 year blip of satellite offices in RTP or Denver or Portland or being 100% WFH in a cabin in Montana is over. The roles at these kinds of offices are the ones that get offshored first.
  - 9rx 11mo ago
    > And finally, you will have to be located in Tier 1 tech hubs now Exactly. Adjusted for cost of living, $300,000 in SF or NYC is about $170,000 where I lived back then, so ~$80/hr. Which is, after adjusted for inflation to that time... You guessed it: $50.94/hr! And you're pointing at high quality talent with considerable experience, not some kid out of high school. Said kid out of high school like I was back then isn't going to find that much in today's market. As you point out, the market has tanked big time — and has been tanking for decades. As before, we're only just now starting to notice how far behind we’ve fallen because of things recently becoming exceptionally more expensive.

alephnerd 11mo ago

London and Toronto have a similar CoL as the Bay Area and $45/hr is a mid-career tech salaries in both Greater London and GTA. Edit: can't reply but every single white collar job provides an employer healthcare plan that is equally as competitive as the public healthcare plans in Canada and the UK. And especially if you were being paid $50/hr as a new grad in 2014. Edit 2: > And I was in Michigan. All the more reason I would have pushed back severely. It's easier to find talent at scale in London or GTA - metros there have a population larger than the entire state of MI, and with a breadth of options beyond UMich Ann-Arbor.

evantbyrne 11mo ago
London and Toronto give people healthcare. And I was in Michigan.
- monero-xmr 11mo ago
  The vast majority of jobs in America give healthcare. The quality is vastly superior to London and Toronto, although we pay far more (and our medical professionals are upper middle class rather than middle / lower class). However this is a huge hidden portion of salary that most are not aware of, about $25k for a family of 4, which increases labor costs greatly. On sheer metrics of access and quality, America kicks the shit out of Europe and Canada
  - flir 11mo ago
    So, uh... how come you die younger?
    - hunterpayne 11mo ago
      Opioid epidemic skews the stats. The OP's point is why the wealthy in your country comes to the US for healthcare
      - flir 11mo ago
        When did the opioid epidemic start? How come other countries don't have that? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita#/media/File:Life_expectancy_vs_healthcare_spending.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_hea...
  - lbreakjai 11mo ago
    I hope we continue getting the shit kicked out of us, if victory looks like medical bankrupcy, and insulin rationing.
csullivannet 11mo ago
$45/hr is low for GTA. I was making about that in Toronto in 2017 with two years experience, one year vocational degree, and a bachelor's in a completely unrelated field.
usefulcat 11mo ago
> every single white collar job provides an employer healthcare plan that The key word there is employer. Contractors often don't get health insurance, and contract jobs are not uncommon in the US.

mbork_pl 11mo ago

FWIW, I get on the order of $40/hour as a senior with almost 10 years experience, and it allows me not to worry too much about spending (with a wife earning about a third of my salary and two kids). I think I could easily earn at least 50% more if I wanted to work for some rich but soul-crushing corp, but for obvious reasons I don't do that. I guess US cost of living is just insane. (I live in central Europe.)

danans 11mo ago
> FWIW, I get on the order of $40/hour as a senior with almost 10 years experience, and it allows me not to worry too much about spending (with a wife earning about a third of my salary and two kids) How much do you pay annually out of pocket for health insurance premiums and other healthcare expenses? In the US that expense is very high, and is a major source of worry for working families.
- alephnerd 11mo ago
  For most white collar jobs like tech here in the US, your out-of-pocket as percentage is income doesn't play a role in how we decide salary bands. For a family of four, the average health plan is around $10k out of pocket from the employee along with around $20k in employer costs [0]. Yet the median American SWE salary is $187k [1] versus $66k in Poland [2], $93k in Canada [3], and $111k in the UK [4]. Either way an American ends up earning significantly more after healthcare costs and insurance. The issue is salary expectations at the lower performance band haven't kept up with what is expected at that salary band. > In the US that expense is very high, and is a major source of worry for working families When benchmarked against similar peer cities in Canada [5] or the UK [6], CoL is roughly at par yet salaries are significantly higher in the US, especially when comparing peer tech markets like SF [7] versus London [8]. This is the crux of the issue - demanding 100% WFH well past the end of COVID made it hard for us to justify domestic hiring when 1. Async was successfully proven to not impact business operation 2. A reverse brain drain of all nationalities in the US during COVID meant it was easier for employers to work with them to open a hub office or GCC abroad 3. A new grad is demanding salaries that simply don't make the economics of training and hiring new grads work. At $70k-$110k it does, but not beyond that. 4. Companies have now adopted the Netflix model - by cutting low performers, we can actually give higher pay bands to employees who actually have a business impact, as can be reflected in the rise in 75th percentile tech salaries. [0] - https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/how-much-do-people-with-employer-plans-spend-out-of-pocket-on-cost-sharing/ https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/how-muc... [1] - https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/united-states https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/united-... [2] - https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/canada https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/canada [3] - https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/canada https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/canada [4] - https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/united-kingdom https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/united-... [5] - https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Canada https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_resu... [6] - https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=United+Kingdom https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_resu... [7] - https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&city1=London&country2=United+States&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...

lisbbb 11mo ago

Jeez--I was making $50/hr in 2004 in one of my first jobs after I finished my PhD and opted out of academia. That pay didn't go that far back then! This is what upsets me about my career--that logistic pay curve. You initially grow fast and then it tops out and never gets better, but your costs keep rising, particularly as you have a family. I'm paying for one kid's college tuition right now, she has 1.5 years left, and will then enter a dubious job market. My son is 15, so if he goes to college, I won't be paying tuition for him until Fall 2028. The problem is, I'm no longer a developer. I'm currently a nothing working on figuring out "something." I have a lot of skills and talents, but seemingly not many that will pay. I'm looking at any 2yr. training program that can get me certified to do something useful. It's so freaking bizarre to be sitting here with a degree in CS/Math, an MS in Computer Engineering from a very reputable university, and a doctorate in Information Management, also from a very reputable university, and looking at basically doing blue collar work! My nation has utterly failed me in every possible manner. I should add that we are looking to move out of our fairly high-cost of living state for a possibly lower cost of living state, but there are complications to that plan, too. My wife doesn't really want to move our son out of the high school he is in. I'm saying that other imperatives need to be addressed before they become full-blown crises. I'm being taxed to death, and costs like insurance are rising fast.

9rx 11mo ago
> My nation has utterly failed me in every possible manner. We've failed ourselves too, though. If I was some random person with endless money burning a hole in my pocket, what would I even do with a CS/Math/Computer engineer/Information manager? It is in no way clear how life is improved by working with such a person. Other industries put a lot of effort into marketing what function they serve. Said random person knows exactly when and why they'd want to hire a plumber, electrician, structural engineer, lawyer, accountant, physician, etc. But us...? We've rested on our laurels thinking Google, Microsoft, and Meta will forever want us, putting no effort into expanding our market.
giardini 11mo ago
Can't do anything about it now but getting that PhD may be the most costly decision you made: https://philip.greenspun.com/careers/ https://philip.greenspun.com/careers/ scroll down to the phrase: THIS IS YOUR EDUCATION, THIS IS YOUR SALARY If I were you I'd be tempted to rewrite my PhD as a multi-year "special project". Reason is that hiring a PhD is controversial unless you're a university or a research division of a corporation. In contrast, the CS/Math & MS will always be solid & saleable.

9rx 11mo ago

> I was making $50/hour fresh out of college back in 2014. And I worked remotely. Same for me, except out of high school, and a decade earlier. That's the sordid tale of the industry. Outside of a handful of FAANG high flyers, pay, in real dollars, has been very steadily decreasing over many decades. But it took high inflation for us to notice. Now we're in a difficult spot because we feel we need to make more to make up for the considerably higher cost of living, but there is no market willing to pay more — and never was.

alephnerd 11mo ago
I wouldn't be that pessimistic. The market can bear to pay high salaries for the right talent. If you can show me you have tangible development skills and can think about the product or feature you develop as a business (eg. Can you justify to me in financial terms the net benefit doing a refactor does versus keeping the status quo) you will be fine. We aren't going to pay you $300k-$400k TC just to be a code monkey. We expect you to be able to help inform actual business decisions and not be a PITA when thinking about the core metrics that matter for a business - NARR, FCF, and COGS. So, being a developer who is specialized in a business domain (eg. Being a fullstack developer but with a decade of experience working on Cloud Security products) makes it easier for hiring managers to decide whether or not to hire you. And as a former PM, those kinds of Engineers are the best to work with becuase they understand the pitfalls that exist in a subdomain and have opinions and the ability to justify them. Those who can upskill or show the ability to upskill are also worth their weight in TC. And finally, you will have to be located in Tier 1 tech hubs now (Bay Area, Seattle, Austin, NYC). The 5-7 year blip of satellite offices in RTP or Denver or Portland or being 100% WFH in a cabin in Montana is over. The roles at these kinds of offices are the ones that get offshored first.
- 9rx 11mo ago
  > And finally, you will have to be located in Tier 1 tech hubs now Exactly. Adjusted for cost of living, $300,000 in SF or NYC is about $170,000 where I lived back then, so ~$80/hr. Which is, after adjusted for inflation to that time... You guessed it: $50.94/hr! And you're pointing at high quality talent with considerable experience, not some kid out of high school. Said kid out of high school like I was back then isn't going to find that much in today's market. As you point out, the market has tanked big time — and has been tanking for decades. As before, we're only just now starting to notice how far behind we’ve fallen because of things recently becoming exceptionally more expensive.