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France is being kept alive by paying itself? Makes no sense. Also arianespace group has 60% of their revenue from the development of the m51 nuclear launcher,

by nolok 11mo ago

France is being kept alive by paying itself? Makes no sense. Also arianespace group has 60% of their revenue from the development of the m51 nuclear launcher, the rocket thing is their side show and a way to subsidize our nuclear launcher development not the other way around. Also ag studied a reusable launcher in the early 2000s and found it not viable economically, because it wasn't, to make it work space x had to have massive government subsidies in guaranteed launch AND starlink which was essentially let our own investors and the dod feed the finance of space x until it's viable. Which is a good strategy mind you, but as a result pointing the finger at ag being supported by government funding as if it was a bad sign is rather absurd.

littlestymaar 11mo ago
> France is being kept alive by paying itself? Makes no sense. For the past 18 years at least, France has been trapped in an economic stagnation driven by terrible economic policies (as if trying to outcompete eastern Europe on cost wasn't a great idea). The only thing that keeps the economist from collapsing entirely is the perpetual stimulus from public spending using foreign loans. (This also will probably stop being sufficient soon since the governing party seems to be obsessed by the idea of reducing public spending instead of fixing their economic policy).
- nolok 11mo ago
  Well I would disagree with that and laugh at the fact that this exact analysis has been published by The Economist and similar for the past 50 years, in fact for the first time France unemployment numbers have gone below the numbers they climbed to in the 90s, and in 2020 for the first time since the turn of the century our deficit was reaching a point allowing our debt to start lowering instead of climbing, and was stopped by a combination of both covid and then the energy crisis and the cover offered to french people. We do have issues and for the past 3 years they've been amplified by our political standoff (parliament cut in three third and none agree to work with the others), but the core of our economic woes is from pensions.
  - littlestymaar 11mo ago
    > Well I would disagree with that and laugh at the fact that this exact analysis has been published by The Economist and similar for the past 50 years I'd be happy to live in a timeline where the Economist criticizes the bullshit that “supply chain economics” is, but if you paid attention you'd be aware that it's not really their editorial line. > fact for the first time France unemployment numbers have gone below the numbers they climbed to in the 90s You should thank the boomers for retiring, not the economic policy. (By the way, employment went up in pretty much all of Europe for the 2010-2020 period while the economy stagnated in most places but the east) > We do have issues and for the past 3 years they've been amplified by our political standoff (parliament cut in three third and none agree to work with the others Standoff caused exactly by the government dogmatic stand over their failed economic policy … > but the core of our economic woes is from pensions. It is not, this is government narrative. The “pension problem” is merely an economic activity problem. When the real wages go down (which is did in France since 2017) while pensions are inflation adjusted, obviously the share of income that goes through pensions increases but that's not a “pensions problem” it's a wage issue (and economy health issue). In fact, public spending per capita is in the middle of what remwins of the EU15 (just above all other Mediterranean countries and below all the others). The reason why the spendings per capita ratio is too high is not because the spendings are too high, but because the GDP is far too low due to inept policies.
  - rvnx 11mo ago
    You forgot to mention that in 2020 currencies were devalued through severe QE, which means it is easier in 2025 to pay back 2M EUR than it was in 2020
    - littlestymaar 11mo ago
      Inflation != currency devaluation and France had a pretty tame inflation compared to many of its neighbors (significantly less than Belgium for instance), which again is a good illustration that inflation has nothing to do with the money supply or the value of a currency, no matter how prevalent this myth is.
wqaatwt 11mo ago
> France is being kept alive by paying itself? Makes no sense. Yes, by borrowing. Any meaningful reforms seems infeasible due to social and political reasons. > Also arianespace group has 60% of their revenue from the development of the m51 nuclear launcher Yes, so we agree its hardly much more than a government military contractor making its money from legacy products and not some sort of an innovative company.
- saubeidl 11mo ago
  I wouldn't exactly call the world's fastest ballistic missile (Mach 25!) a legacy product...
  - rbanffy 11mo ago
    That kind of delta-v makes it almost an orbital launcher.
  - holoduke 11mo ago
    It's just an orbital launch vehicle. Something the US can produce by dozens per day it needed. Whereas the French have a stockpile which is no more than 50 with a production rate of maybe 1 or 2 per month.
    - saubeidl 11mo ago
      The US one is slower...
inemesitaffia 11mo ago
SpaceX had to sue the government to launch for them. Anything about guaranteed launch is an outright lie. Not ignorance. For those who don't know, the DOD didn't finance SpaceX or Starlink or reusability. This claim is total nonsense that started as Russian propaganda. You'll notice the DOD refused to finance Starlink in Ukraine when they were asked to. So much for subsidies. SpaceX was all customer and investor funded. Starlink was funded by Google and Fidelity. Reusability was funded via income. Ariane is the provider with subsidies. In the past it was ULA.

by nolok 11mo ago

littlestymaar 11mo ago

> France is being kept alive by paying itself? Makes no sense. For the past 18 years at least, France has been trapped in an economic stagnation driven by terrible economic policies (as if trying to outcompete eastern Europe on cost wasn't a great idea). The only thing that keeps the economist from collapsing entirely is the perpetual stimulus from public spending using foreign loans. (This also will probably stop being sufficient soon since the governing party seems to be obsessed by the idea of reducing public spending instead of fixing their economic policy).

nolok 11mo ago
Well I would disagree with that and laugh at the fact that this exact analysis has been published by The Economist and similar for the past 50 years, in fact for the first time France unemployment numbers have gone below the numbers they climbed to in the 90s, and in 2020 for the first time since the turn of the century our deficit was reaching a point allowing our debt to start lowering instead of climbing, and was stopped by a combination of both covid and then the energy crisis and the cover offered to french people. We do have issues and for the past 3 years they've been amplified by our political standoff (parliament cut in three third and none agree to work with the others), but the core of our economic woes is from pensions.
- littlestymaar 11mo ago
  > Well I would disagree with that and laugh at the fact that this exact analysis has been published by The Economist and similar for the past 50 years I'd be happy to live in a timeline where the Economist criticizes the bullshit that “supply chain economics” is, but if you paid attention you'd be aware that it's not really their editorial line. > fact for the first time France unemployment numbers have gone below the numbers they climbed to in the 90s You should thank the boomers for retiring, not the economic policy. (By the way, employment went up in pretty much all of Europe for the 2010-2020 period while the economy stagnated in most places but the east) > We do have issues and for the past 3 years they've been amplified by our political standoff (parliament cut in three third and none agree to work with the others Standoff caused exactly by the government dogmatic stand over their failed economic policy … > but the core of our economic woes is from pensions. It is not, this is government narrative. The “pension problem” is merely an economic activity problem. When the real wages go down (which is did in France since 2017) while pensions are inflation adjusted, obviously the share of income that goes through pensions increases but that's not a “pensions problem” it's a wage issue (and economy health issue). In fact, public spending per capita is in the middle of what remwins of the EU15 (just above all other Mediterranean countries and below all the others). The reason why the spendings per capita ratio is too high is not because the spendings are too high, but because the GDP is far too low due to inept policies.
- rvnx 11mo ago
  You forgot to mention that in 2020 currencies were devalued through severe QE, which means it is easier in 2025 to pay back 2M EUR than it was in 2020
  - littlestymaar 11mo ago
    Inflation != currency devaluation and France had a pretty tame inflation compared to many of its neighbors (significantly less than Belgium for instance), which again is a good illustration that inflation has nothing to do with the money supply or the value of a currency, no matter how prevalent this myth is.

wqaatwt 11mo ago

> France is being kept alive by paying itself? Makes no sense. Yes, by borrowing. Any meaningful reforms seems infeasible due to social and political reasons. > Also arianespace group has 60% of their revenue from the development of the m51 nuclear launcher Yes, so we agree its hardly much more than a government military contractor making its money from legacy products and not some sort of an innovative company.

saubeidl 11mo ago
I wouldn't exactly call the world's fastest ballistic missile (Mach 25!) a legacy product...
- rbanffy 11mo ago
  That kind of delta-v makes it almost an orbital launcher.
- holoduke 11mo ago
  It's just an orbital launch vehicle. Something the US can produce by dozens per day it needed. Whereas the French have a stockpile which is no more than 50 with a production rate of maybe 1 or 2 per month.
  - saubeidl 11mo ago
    The US one is slower...

inemesitaffia 11mo ago

SpaceX had to sue the government to launch for them. Anything about guaranteed launch is an outright lie. Not ignorance. For those who don't know, the DOD didn't finance SpaceX or Starlink or reusability. This claim is total nonsense that started as Russian propaganda. You'll notice the DOD refused to finance Starlink in Ukraine when they were asked to. So much for subsidies. SpaceX was all customer and investor funded. Starlink was funded by Google and Fidelity. Reusability was funded via income. Ariane is the provider with subsidies. In the past it was ULA.