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> Under terms being discussed, Visa and Mastercard would lower credit-card interchange fees, which are often between 2% and 2.5%, by an average of around a tent

> Under terms being discussed, Visa and Mastercard would lower credit-card interchange fees, which are often between 2% and 2.5%, by an average of around a tenth of a percentage point over several years, the people said Meanwhile interchange fees in places like EU and Australia are more like 0.3% The Visa/Mastercard duopoly really needs to be broken up somehow. I live in Asia where there is a cambrian explosion of QR-code based payment methods. At many shops you'll see a list of accepted payment methods like this[0], indicating a healthy amount of competition in payments. [0] https://corporate.fithouse.co.jp/wp/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/K決済表示NEWS用202202_800×1550.png https://corporate.fithouse.co.jp/wp/wp-content/uploads/2021/...

phantomathkg 1y ago
QR Code base system is slow, have security risk and will not work without smartphone. Proliferation of hundred of QR Code based payments system is not a good thing, you need one that works across all countries. Outside Visa and Mastercard, we have Amex, Diner, JCB, even China has UnionPay, but unfortunately they are not as popular as a contender of the duopoly.
- kalleboo 1y ago
  QR is not ideal but as long as Apple keeps such a tight leash on NFC payments, it's the only "open" option. It's ironic that by trying to keep NFC payments so secure, they've instead caused the wide proliferation of far less secure alternatives. Physical card issuance is too high-friction for new entrants. It's much easier to attract new users with "just install our app" than "enter your home address and wait days for a card to arrive then put it in your wallet and remember to use it"
- teyc 1y ago
  what's the security risk with QR systems? I've recently come to use one and it relies on software for both parties having connectivity.
  - justsomehnguy 1y ago
    There are no more than using a plastic banking card. You still need to think what are you doing and what are you paying for and how much.
  - namibj 1y ago
    Presumably if the payer displays and the recipient scans; however that's technically solved by the POS showing the target address, amount, and bill/reference ID; the shopper then scanning, visually confirming the amount, and approving. A few seconds later the money can have arrived (depending on system): in Europe today with normal banks and their online banking apps: the QR-on-POS-screen concept using the standard SEPA instant push transaction encoding, to prompt a <10 seconds confirmed-or-aborted "Echtzeit-Überweisung" (German phrase; the standard works across some borders already though) that's polled by the recipient (to release the customer out of the store), with the obvious fallback of "guess you have to pay a different way". If for example the self-checkout terminal would just print a bill that then has to be paid by scanning a code on the bill or bringing it to a manned till or such, before the gate releases you from the area just behind the self-checkout kiosks (in response to you scanning the bill at the gate), this could absorb the online banking app friction/delays and offer a fallback of presenting the bill and a backup credit card at one of those kiosks as soon as one frees up in addition to the mentioned human-till cash payment or whatever else they do if your card suddenly misbehaves.
  - kalleboo 1y ago
    Where I am most of the systems have an option to use static printed QR codes that the payer scans. This is easy to use for small businesses like bars since it requires zero hardware or staff training. There have been reports of people printing their own QR codes and sticking them over the QR codes for businesses.
    - teyc 1y ago
      With WeChat and Alipay, the recipients phone confirms receipt with a Kaching and TTS amount transferred.
  - phantomathkg 1y ago
- gmerc 1y ago
  Meanwhile all of Asia, China, Singapore, Taiwan, Thailand, India, increasingly Japan run just fine on QR.
- wtmt 1y ago
  > QR Code base system is slow, have security risk and will not work without smartphone. Proliferation of hundred of QR Code based payments system is not a good thing, you need one that works across all countries. Agree on some security risks. But the cost of creating, printing or sharing a QR code is very low compared to NFC hardware cost and availability. I don’t know what you mean by slow, because it takes about 10 seconds to complete a transaction. QR codes are quite common in cities and towns in India because of this reason (and the other is that Apple, though a tiny player in the market, hasn’t opened up NFC completely for others to use). You can pay another person or a merchant by scanning a QR code on a cheap Android phone. You can pay for a metro or bus ticket by scanning a QR code. You’d likely see restaurants having a QR code for menus instead of paper menus, and many more.
ulfw 1y ago
Meanwhile everywhere you pay with a credit card in Australia you have to pay an additional 1-2% because they can get away with it. It's a terrible example really. (just as an example: https://www.hilton.com/en/book/reservation/rooms/?ctyhocn=SYDHITW&arrivalDate=2025-11-09&departureDate=2025-11-10&room1NumAdults=1&displayCurrency=AUD&aarpRate= https://www.hilton.com/en/book/reservation/rooms/?ctyhocn=SY...) "Hotel Message Credit Card Fee Credit Card payments relating to Australian hotels incur a merchant service fee of 2% in addition to the total amount payable."
- FormFollowsFunc 1y ago
  It’s kind of how it should be. Otherwise people not paying by credit card are subsidising people who do. It might encourage the card companies to lower their fees.
  - amarcheschi 1y ago
    Managing cash itself though is other additional costs that aren't present when paying by card, having to bring it to bank periodically if you're doing that, ecc
    - stefanfisk 1y ago
      For a small shop that is work you can do yourself VS work you are forced to pay someone else to do.
      - amarcheschi 1y ago
        Oh yes that's sure, but you still pay in time rather than money (I guess it's OK for a lot of people)
    - barbazoo 1y ago
      There is debit cards in many countries with marginal fees. As it is now those savings aren’t passed on to me I still do it for local shops.
    - 1y ago
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
TMWNN 1y ago
>Meanwhile interchange fees in places like EU and Australia are more like 0.3% Those places don't have the ruthless competition between card issuers and various rewards that occurs in the US. I was paid $1000 by Chase for opening a new card and doing the spend on it that I would have done anyway. I get 5% back on every purchase made at Amazon. I get 3% back for every food-related purchase. I get 2% back for every other purchase. I get rewards for my monthly rent payment. Etc., etc. >I live in Asia where there is a cambrian explosion of QR-code based payment methods. No American, used to having his Visa or Mastercard accepted at 99% and Amex accepted at 97% of places, would want to switch to constantly having to scan gigantic charts such as your example to see whether his card/payment method will work. In other words, the US has the competition you spoke of, without the inconvenience.
- amarcheschi 1y ago
  In Europe we don't often have recurrent bonus, and they're much smaller, but we still have banks giving you up to ~200€ to open a bank account and use it to deposit your wage, or other banks having cashback. Right now I'm having 10% cashback on everything (up to 70€/month of cashback) + 50€ for opening an account with ing. All I have to do is keeping a balance of at least 100€ for 1 day before 2026. Other banks are starting to finally adapt to other countries and give interests on the liquidity you have in your account
blasphemers 1y ago
Visa/MasterCard are essentially a network of banks, they only get a small percentage of the interchange rate. Most of it goes to the issuing bank which they use for rewards. This line of thinking also ignores an important aspect of credit cards that benefit the merchant. 2-2.5% is not that much when it means you can sell to people without worrying about if they can pay for it. When that customer ultimately doesn't pay their CC bill(look at how high CC debt is), the issuing bank still needs to pay the merchant.
- barbazoo 1y ago
  > 2.5% is not that much when it means you can sell to people without worrying about if they can pay for it. Is that not how these other payment providers work? Would they let a transaction through that won’t be settled afterward?
  - blasphemers 1y ago
    What payment provider is allowing payments without accessing the customers current funds? With a CC, you can charge $1000 with only $100 in your bank account. That is not something you can do with ACH, check, cash, etc. Pay Now Pay Later providers like Affirm would also allow this, but I'm not sure what that looks like from a merchant POV
    - barbazoo 1y ago
      Oh ok so you can’t pay with money you don’t have. I wish that cost wasn’t socialized.
      - blasphemers 1y ago
        Is the cost of a dining room socialized if a restaurant does take out? It's a business cost that was from it's inception sold as a way to increase potential customer base and reduce risk, which is still a valid and correct way of looking at it considering bounced checks don't get paid out to merchants and cash gets skimmed.

phantomathkg 1y ago

QR Code base system is slow, have security risk and will not work without smartphone. Proliferation of hundred of QR Code based payments system is not a good thing, you need one that works across all countries. Outside Visa and Mastercard, we have Amex, Diner, JCB, even China has UnionPay, but unfortunately they are not as popular as a contender of the duopoly.

kalleboo 1y ago
QR is not ideal but as long as Apple keeps such a tight leash on NFC payments, it's the only "open" option. It's ironic that by trying to keep NFC payments so secure, they've instead caused the wide proliferation of far less secure alternatives. Physical card issuance is too high-friction for new entrants. It's much easier to attract new users with "just install our app" than "enter your home address and wait days for a card to arrive then put it in your wallet and remember to use it"
teyc 1y ago
what's the security risk with QR systems? I've recently come to use one and it relies on software for both parties having connectivity.
- justsomehnguy 1y ago
  There are no more than using a plastic banking card. You still need to think what are you doing and what are you paying for and how much.
- namibj 1y ago
  Presumably if the payer displays and the recipient scans; however that's technically solved by the POS showing the target address, amount, and bill/reference ID; the shopper then scanning, visually confirming the amount, and approving. A few seconds later the money can have arrived (depending on system): in Europe today with normal banks and their online banking apps: the QR-on-POS-screen concept using the standard SEPA instant push transaction encoding, to prompt a <10 seconds confirmed-or-aborted "Echtzeit-Überweisung" (German phrase; the standard works across some borders already though) that's polled by the recipient (to release the customer out of the store), with the obvious fallback of "guess you have to pay a different way". If for example the self-checkout terminal would just print a bill that then has to be paid by scanning a code on the bill or bringing it to a manned till or such, before the gate releases you from the area just behind the self-checkout kiosks (in response to you scanning the bill at the gate), this could absorb the online banking app friction/delays and offer a fallback of presenting the bill and a backup credit card at one of those kiosks as soon as one frees up in addition to the mentioned human-till cash payment or whatever else they do if your card suddenly misbehaves.
- kalleboo 1y ago
  Where I am most of the systems have an option to use static printed QR codes that the payer scans. This is easy to use for small businesses like bars since it requires zero hardware or staff training. There have been reports of people printing their own QR codes and sticking them over the QR codes for businesses.
  - teyc 1y ago
    With WeChat and Alipay, the recipients phone confirms receipt with a Kaching and TTS amount transferred.
- phantomathkg 1y ago
gmerc 1y ago
Meanwhile all of Asia, China, Singapore, Taiwan, Thailand, India, increasingly Japan run just fine on QR.
wtmt 1y ago
> QR Code base system is slow, have security risk and will not work without smartphone. Proliferation of hundred of QR Code based payments system is not a good thing, you need one that works across all countries. Agree on some security risks. But the cost of creating, printing or sharing a QR code is very low compared to NFC hardware cost and availability. I don’t know what you mean by slow, because it takes about 10 seconds to complete a transaction. QR codes are quite common in cities and towns in India because of this reason (and the other is that Apple, though a tiny player in the market, hasn’t opened up NFC completely for others to use). You can pay another person or a merchant by scanning a QR code on a cheap Android phone. You can pay for a metro or bus ticket by scanning a QR code. You’d likely see restaurants having a QR code for menus instead of paper menus, and many more.

ulfw 1y ago

Meanwhile everywhere you pay with a credit card in Australia you have to pay an additional 1-2% because they can get away with it. It's a terrible example really. (just as an example: https://www.hilton.com/en/book/reservation/rooms/?ctyhocn=SYDHITW&arrivalDate=2025-11-09&departureDate=2025-11-10&room1NumAdults=1&displayCurrency=AUD&aarpRate= https://www.hilton.com/en/book/reservation/rooms/?ctyhocn=SY...) "Hotel Message Credit Card Fee Credit Card payments relating to Australian hotels incur a merchant service fee of 2% in addition to the total amount payable."

FormFollowsFunc 1y ago
It’s kind of how it should be. Otherwise people not paying by credit card are subsidising people who do. It might encourage the card companies to lower their fees.
- amarcheschi 1y ago
  Managing cash itself though is other additional costs that aren't present when paying by card, having to bring it to bank periodically if you're doing that, ecc
  - stefanfisk 1y ago
    For a small shop that is work you can do yourself VS work you are forced to pay someone else to do.
    - amarcheschi 1y ago
      Oh yes that's sure, but you still pay in time rather than money (I guess it's OK for a lot of people)
  - barbazoo 1y ago
    There is debit cards in many countries with marginal fees. As it is now those savings aren’t passed on to me I still do it for local shops.
  - 1y ago

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

TMWNN 1y ago

>Meanwhile interchange fees in places like EU and Australia are more like 0.3% Those places don't have the ruthless competition between card issuers and various rewards that occurs in the US. I was paid $1000 by Chase for opening a new card and doing the spend on it that I would have done anyway. I get 5% back on every purchase made at Amazon. I get 3% back for every food-related purchase. I get 2% back for every other purchase. I get rewards for my monthly rent payment. Etc., etc. >I live in Asia where there is a cambrian explosion of QR-code based payment methods. No American, used to having his Visa or Mastercard accepted at 99% and Amex accepted at 97% of places, would want to switch to constantly having to scan gigantic charts such as your example to see whether his card/payment method will work. In other words, the US has the competition you spoke of, without the inconvenience.

amarcheschi 1y ago
In Europe we don't often have recurrent bonus, and they're much smaller, but we still have banks giving you up to ~200€ to open a bank account and use it to deposit your wage, or other banks having cashback. Right now I'm having 10% cashback on everything (up to 70€/month of cashback) + 50€ for opening an account with ing. All I have to do is keeping a balance of at least 100€ for 1 day before 2026. Other banks are starting to finally adapt to other countries and give interests on the liquidity you have in your account

blasphemers 1y ago

Visa/MasterCard are essentially a network of banks, they only get a small percentage of the interchange rate. Most of it goes to the issuing bank which they use for rewards. This line of thinking also ignores an important aspect of credit cards that benefit the merchant. 2-2.5% is not that much when it means you can sell to people without worrying about if they can pay for it. When that customer ultimately doesn't pay their CC bill(look at how high CC debt is), the issuing bank still needs to pay the merchant.

barbazoo 1y ago
> 2.5% is not that much when it means you can sell to people without worrying about if they can pay for it. Is that not how these other payment providers work? Would they let a transaction through that won’t be settled afterward?
- blasphemers 1y ago
  What payment provider is allowing payments without accessing the customers current funds? With a CC, you can charge $1000 with only $100 in your bank account. That is not something you can do with ACH, check, cash, etc. Pay Now Pay Later providers like Affirm would also allow this, but I'm not sure what that looks like from a merchant POV
  - barbazoo 1y ago
    Oh ok so you can’t pay with money you don’t have. I wish that cost wasn’t socialized.
    - blasphemers 1y ago
      Is the cost of a dining room socialized if a restaurant does take out? It's a business cost that was from it's inception sold as a way to increase potential customer base and reduce risk, which is still a valid and correct way of looking at it considering bounced checks don't get paid out to merchants and cash gets skimmed.